By Request - green tank pics

[DJ88]

Please would anyone who blames our tap water please stop.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bob,

To me not using a RODI in a reef tank is only looking for incidents like this to happen. Do you know exactly how clean the DFW system is from the resevoir/purification/chlorination plant to Alan's house? Has the system been inspected to ensure nothing has gotten in that could have introduced a possible contaminant into the water? Have there been no breaks in the line? Is all the piping used of a material that will not leech small amounts of minerals and contaminants? Can you say that with 100% certainty?

The reason I bought a RO/DI for my tank is to make sure that no matter what I was putting clean water in my tank. All too often mistakes are made after all it is peole running machines. all it takes is one slip and something gets into a line before it is noticed, it ends up in your tank and sits there. If it were phosphates in small enough quantities you wouldn't even notice it. But if the amounts were to build up in a tank over time end be held in the sand bed or LR, with enough in there they will start a bloom such as this. Once it has started and reaches saturation in the water column it will become self sustaining. Some dies off, breaks down feeds a whole new bloom.

Until the cause is found and removed, treating the symptoms is a moot point.

Saying the water in Calgary is made for reef tanks and isn't the problem doesn't work IMO. Until it has been proven that the entire water system is so clean that it is of a higher quality than what comes out of a RO/DI, I will cite that as a major source for contaminants in a tank. That is the first place I will look in any tank experiencing an algae outbreak on the scale Alan is. Next would be the LR and sand bed. All three possibly have the phosphates bound up in them which is feeding this.

Sorry Alan. Had to say it. I hope this gets cleared up soon. I really do.

[AJ_77]

Hey Darren, no need to apologize for adding considerable and well-intentioned input. I am rarely offended by anyone trying to help me out. I claim expetise on none of this, it's the combined knowledge and experience base here that makes Canreef so amazing. (Insert applause Here.)

As for the water issue, one of the things that helped me decide to get back into SW was Calgary water's reputed suitability. Many people keep wonderful tanks with it - just not me (yet).

I aspire to be a "lumper" like Bob - keeping a beautiful tank without devoting my life to its care. I suppose this might go against your new sig line, and maybe I need to rethink this whole venture.

Alan

[Delphinus]

As the saying goes, in an investigation, once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever possibility remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Deduction: something is feeding the green water, such that it doesn't die back (otherwise it would).

Hypothesis: it must be something in the water, in the rocks, in the sand, in the additives, or in the food. (What else can there be?) The glass itself? The plumbing? The hardware?

Personally, I do doubt that it's the water itself. But this can't be said with 100% certainty. It IS a suspect until we get to the bottom of this.

I'm also quite undecided what to suggest myself as far as the 100% water changes go (hence the suggestion, delete the message, suggest it again, delete it again, process). I guess I WOULD be tempted to try it, but I am worried that it may shock the tank inhabitants, espescially if a series of attempts is needed. So maybe for starters, it is the UV and the refugium ideas, give it a week or so. If the water changes are absolutely mandatory then a temporary housing of larger inhabitants may be in order. A 100% water change on a 90gallon tank has got to be the absolute most invasive thing. Where exactly does one mix and age 90 gallons of water? Usually this is done in the tank itself well before adding anything live. Can't take out 90g and mix new saltwater in situ, fresh saltwater is nasty caustic. So it would have to be, probably, something like three rubbermaid garbage containers. Whew, isn't Alan's wife going to love me for suggesting we put 3 of those in her living room for a couple of days! [img]smile.gif[/img]

We definitely need a quantitative measurement of something though. We need to establish what the NO3 and PO4 values are. If we can identify one of these are being out of whack, then we can try to attack that one parameter and once it's under control see what happens to the colour of the water. Until we know numbers, it really is just guesswork (we seem to be assuming phosphates are whacked, let's at least start by proving that theory correct.) Alan I can't come over tonight but maybe I can come over tomorrow or Friday sometime (daytime Friday preferred) and bring some of my testkits, let's see what we can't find out about this.

[ 17 July 2002, 15:30: Message edited by: delphinus ]

[Bob I]

I would never discourage anyone who wants to use RO/DI water from doing so, that is entirely up to them, but I do consider the advice that Alan replace all his water with it to be not necessarily well thought out. Some of the more successful reef tanks in Calgary use tap water. I for one will continue to do so. I do believe that Alan's problems do not lie in the water, but that is my gut feeling only. I think his rock or sandbed may be at fault, and the addition of chemical goop to get rid of chlorine is, in my opinion, also suspect. I hope Alan looks at all the advice so freely given, and makes the correct choice.

[DJ88]

Tony,

The problem with testing for PO4 is most will be bound up in the sand bed now. Once you remove some (with water changes, phosphate sponge) more will be released. If PO4 is a part of the problem. Which I am presuming it is. You can test for it but until it is removed from all possible areas where it can be suspended in you will still have some coming back.

Until you find the source and remove it this won't be a quick fix.

IMO IME

I do consider the advice that Alan replace all his water with it to be not necessarily well thought out

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">?????

Do you not agree that Alan's water is FULL of some form of algae? A good start is a set of water changes. In conjunction with work being done with the rock and sand bed. Other tanks using tap water in Calgary has no bearing in Alan's case. His tank has grown a large algae bloom. It is no longer like other tanks. By doing several large changes with RODI you are removing the water as a possible source for food. Why not try it? Right now I see no actual proof that it is not a part of this problem other than people saying they use tap water. How far does word of mouth get you in court? If the water is clean, great. Why not put it to rest by crossing it out completely? It is a much easier solution than ripping the whole system down and scrubbing all the rocks and sand... Either it works or it doesn't.. By backhandeldy dismissing this you are possibly writing off an easy fix. I don't understand that reasoning... It's like saying that Calgarians can't get a flu because the air is better. An extreme example but to me that is how it is appearing.

Two or three large water changes done over a period of couple of weeks will quite possibly assist greatly in removing the food source. Until it is tried, don't write it off. Suggestions have been asked for, suggestions have been given. Suggestions probably based upon expereinces with various forms of algae outbreaks. Saying that it isn't the water without trying it is not very good logic to me...

As it stands now the water in Alan's tank is a large breeding ground. If small partial water changes are done all that will result is a fresh source of nutrition for the algae and a whole new bloom starts. By doing several large changes you can remove as much of the algae or whatever it is and hopefully remove part of the source that is feeding it.

Filters, sponges and such are a trying to fix the symptoms, even a diatom filter is NOT going to remove the food source, especially if it is PO4. To fix this you need to fix the cause. That is possibly one or all of these three things. (I am betting all three are now part of it since this has been going on for so long)

Water.

Sand.

Rock.

Right now all three are bound up with phosphates or some other source of nutrition for that algae. If you only try to fix one or part of one you are leaving the others to feed it all once again. It's like trying to fight a house fire by only spraying water into the basement or on the lawn. To do it effectively you need to remove what it needs to thrive, food. If you don't remove it all or at least a huge part of it there will be a chace of it coming back. To remove it you are goign to be looking at water, rock and sand

IMO IME.

take that advice as you want Alan. If I was closer I'd willingly help out by hosting your critters.

I'll shut up now. As it seems Calgary's water is a touchy issue.

[Doug]

Darren, although I am not sure about adding livestock, the idea may help. I disagree about the nutrients, as they are there because they are not being removed. If clams or whatever consume them, then there not a problem anymore.

I do agree, we need to find the root of the problem though. I dont know if phosphate loaded rock could produce that much algae. What we need to do, is someone with a honkin skimmer, to see if it clears it up.

If massive water changes are done and no other parameters changed, and the problem remains, then its either the rock, sand or make-up water.

[Bob I]

I would never ask that anyone shut up. Everyone is free to voice opinions. I am just sorry that Alan is faced with some very expensive choices. 90 gallons of RO/DI water has to be purchased several times, along with all the salt. Sounds discouraging to me. IMVHO, we might as well go out and purchase a Vortex and a bunch of earth, and just keep cleaning until the source is gone. Also expensive, but what the hey, hey? Please, Alan I am not trying to discourage you.

[Canadian Man]

Alan, as Tony offered his help to you, i will as well. I am off on thursday but availiable in morning or evening if you decide to anything you need help with.

1.If you want to do water changes i am willing to supply you with the RO/DI water to do so. we could just fill up a couple buckets at a time and bring them over to your place.

2.If you want help hooking up the UV sterilizer and dont know how i can offer my assistance as well

3. If you need a place to house your critter than your fish would do well in my refugium and be easy to catch and corals in my tank.

Keep strong and confident throught this.
cheers

[Troy F]

How is the sandbed fauna doing in the tank? Stands to reason that if it is truly a consumable phytoplankton, there should be an explosion of life in the tank?

Doug, Jayson, I'm not saying that a clam wouldn't consume whatever is in there, just that it could be an expensive experiment for both participants. I stand by the gorgonian comments, there's no way one or two or even more would clear that tank up.

[Delphinus]

DJ88 you are correct, at this point, PO4 (let's call it parameter 'X') is everywhere. Doesn't matter -- for sanity check, I still want to test for it. Because until we've confirmed something is abalanced, we're only working on educated guesses. (We can be pretty sure that something is amiss, but let's confirm that as a first step.) Dealing with a specific finding, is a different issue, and that will be ultimately up to Alan how to deal with that.

Removing an unbalanced parameter is a nightmare. I know. I have a tank with >80ppm nitrate. It's been up there for about 3, 4 months now. My "little killer SPS tank" I had 6 months ago is just that "a killer OF SPS tank." :( I'm amazed, but my carpet seems to dig it. Anyways. Once the level is up there, it doesn't go away quickly, that's for darn sure. Practical sized water changes very quickly run into a point of diminishing returns. Everytime I make a little headway it shoots right back up. I am about to throw in the towel on this tank. Luckily I have two other reefs, so it's not like I'm quitting, I'm just giving up on one tank's bad design.

If 100% water changes are called for, then this is going to be a team effort. No way can a single person perform a 90g water change by himself. What a nightmare scenario. If that's what we have to do though, that is what we will do. Let us completely exhaust all other possibilities first though.

[ 17 July 2002, 16:43: Message edited by: delphinus ]