calling all electricans

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by 2pts

I know it was overkill and expensive, but what I did was run 14/3 to my fishtank circuit, which is 2 seperate double plugs. (Be careful if you do this, research it a lot.) The white (neutral) is shared with the 2 hot circuits (red/black). In the panel I put in a double pole 15amp GFCI breaker ( $150 breaker).

I regret running the 14/3, that locked me into a 2 pole breaker, which is more money. If I did it again I would run either 2 lines of 14/2 and 2 single pole 15 amp gfci breakers or better yet 2 @ 12/2 lines and 2 single pole 20 amp gfci breakers. Reason being, if one circuit trips, it trips both breakers, meaning all my pumps die, except my return pump in the basement which runs in the sump and is plugged into a gfci plug on a whole other circuit.

I was going to suggest running 12/3. I did this in my old house then used 15 amp breaker and 15 amp recepticles. I went for the 20 amp wire so if I found I needed the extra power later I could just change the breaker to 20 amp and the outlets also for cheep.

I don't know why you regretted doing it breakers are dirt cheep and you don't need a double pole. you can run two 15amp single slot breakers that way they will trip independently I have two circutes in this house that are run that way. 40 bucks in breakers (I have the expensive type in the new sub pannel ) if you have stablock you can get them for 10 to 15 bucks each.

Steve

[2pts]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

I don't know why you regretted doing it breakers are dirt cheep and you don't need a double pole. you can run two 15amp single slot breakers that way they will trip independently I have two circutes in this house that are run that way. 40 bucks in breakers (I have the expensive type in the new sub pannel ) if you have stablock you can get them for 10 to 15 bucks each.

Steve

Oh for sure I could have easily done what you said, but by making the choice of having the GFCI in the breaker, not the outlet, that is where the cost weant way up.

Here is a link to the breaker I have at home depot...
http://www.homedepot.ca/webapp/wcs/s...k=P_PartNumber

[mike31154]

I'd advise against running any "3" wire such as 14/3 or 12/3 as well for much the same reason as 2pts has mentioned. I wired up some bedroom circuits with 14/3 on a single Siemens AFCI circuit breaker specially designed for two circuits. I then saw a "Note" in the "Electrical Code Simplified" book by PS Knight, that states an AFCI breaker "cannot be used with three wire cables, only two supply wire cables may be used." Mind you, the illustration in the book shows a Square D single pole Arc Fault breaker and there's a newer version of the book available with much more info on AFCI & GFCI requirements. I haven't had a chance to look at the latest revisions, but I reckon if Siemens produces double pole AFCI breakers designed for their panels and for use with 3 wire cable, it's more than likely safe and I haven't had a problem since installing mine. Not sure whether I could have used two 14/2 cables with this breaker instead of the 14/3, can't seem to find the installation instructions at the moment. Looks like the center neutral connection on the breaker could handle two neutrals. Anyhow, I digress, I think. I did say I regret doing this. Main reason is the size of the breaker itself, it's massive & uses up several spaces in the panel, and while you save a bit on wiring with the 3 conductor cable, I don't really like the idea of the single neutral wire carrying the return current for both hot leads feeding two separate circuits. This seems to go somewhat against another code requirement calling for adequate separation of wire runs to protect from overheating & fire. In 3 wire cable, they're all bundled together nice & tight in the outer sheathing.

How does that relate to wiring a GFCI protected circuit with 3 wire cable? While I didn't find the same Note I alluded to in the previous paragraph in my trusty "Simplified Code" book, it does say to use only 2 wire cable because the GFI circuit breaker will not work if wired with 3 wire cable. This does make sense since the principle behind a GFI is to compare incoming to outgoing current in the hot & neutral, then trip once the current mismatch reaches the design threshold which is in the 3 to 5 milliamp range. It's easy to see that with a 3 wire cable (2 hots & 1 neutral), it's pretty much guaranteed that there will be a current mismatch in fairly short order. Therefore any circuits in your home wired using 3 wire cable are poor candidates for a GFCI device. Having said that, the link 2pts provides in his post clearly shows a dandy Siemens 2 pole GFCI circuit breaker that's got the same form factor as the 2 pole AFCI breaker I installed. I can only surmise that one would use two separate 14/2 cables to wire up this device and the magic involved in comparing current flow happens inside the breaker.

In any case, my preference is to run two separate 15 amp circuits using 14/2 wire over a single 20 amp circuit wherever possible. The smaller guage 14 wire is easier to work with and you get a total of 30 amps with the redundancy of two separate circuits and additional flexibility as to the use of GFCI devices (breaker or receptacle, your choice). Of course for places like the garage, workshop, outdoor outlets where you know you'll be using devices & tools capable of drawing close to 20 amps per single device, 20 amp or larger circuit is the way to go. Just be prepared to pay a premium for 20 amp GFI devices & other hardware.

[StirCrazy]

Mike, you want to use GFIC outlets not breakers (mich cheaper) when you use 3 wire. my stuff is gfic protected and its 3 wire, and it was done by a real electrition and inspected, as fixing the mess I bought was to big of a job for me and it was cheaper to pay and electrition than to buy some of the tools I would have needed.

I have been using the electrical code book made simple for about 7 years now and remember it is only a tiny slice of easy things for home owners so they can do simple things and or gain a little bit of knowlage so they can understand when an electrition is giving you a quote or explaining something to you. it is far far from containing the whole electrical code.

Steve

[donlite]

2 points First is you need to know the gauge of wire in your wall and second you should only run a breaker at about %80 of rate. If you use a larger breaker and the wire is not rated for it you are looking for trouble.

[blacknife]

all good points. I am about to run some temporary runs to my fish tank area< i need to build walls before i do permanent runs> but i must be on the right path because i was planing to do it about the way you guys are saying

[Lampshade]

All good points, biggest thing is that small wire size = heat buildup. Some poeple put in 20A breakers on 15A circuits without problems, mainly because they have a hair dryer kicking the circuit out or something. It's still bad.. but not a huge fire hazard. The deal with the fish tank is that you'll be puling a big draw for hours at a time, allowing the wires to heat up, creating more voltage drop, causeing more heat... until it gets bad. I'm pulling a second circuit for my tank this weekend for the same reason, i'm not tripping the breaker, but i'm running VERY close(i've tripped it with a 250W heater added). I just want extra room for security.

As for GFCI breakers, the wall plugs are defintily cheaper, but check out craigslist for GFCI breakers. Sadly they're probably stolen from worksites, but they're often on there.

[mike31154]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

Mike, you want to use GFIC outlets not breakers (mich cheaper) when you use 3 wire. my stuff is gfic protected and its 3 wire, and it was done by a real electrition and inspected, as fixing the mess I bought was to big of a job for me and it was cheaper to pay and electrition than to buy some of the tools I would have needed.

I have been using the electrical code book made simple for about 7 years now and remember it is only a tiny slice of easy things for home owners so they can do simple things and or gain a little bit of knowlage so they can understand when an electrition is giving you a quote or explaining something to you. it is far far from containing the whole electrical code.

Steve

Thank you Steve, I use a combination of devices, breakers and receptacles. I'm also aware that the 'simplified residential' book doesn't cover everything, but certainly deals with most things the average home owner is going to come across. The introduction of GFI & AFI devices in the past few years have been some fairly major revisions, but much of the other stuff has remained unchanged for quite some time. In the USA the move is actually towards protecting every single circuit in the house with either an AFI or GFI depending on application. I believe the only exception they will give you is your fridge or freezer so you're less likely to spoil all your food in the event of the nasty nuisance trip which certainly plagued the earlier versions of these devices. Not sure whether they've got it totally sorted out yet with the technology. Personally I think they're going overboard in the US with this and some congressman's financial advisor has a bunch of shares in electrical device manufacturing companies!! If that's the way they want to go, might as well install one big honking AFI/GFI as the main breaker and be done with it.

[mike31154]

Originally Posted by Lampshade

All good points, biggest thing is that small wire size = heat buildup. Some poeple put in 20A breakers on 15A circuits without problems, mainly because they have a hair dryer kicking the circuit out or something. It's still bad.. but not a huge fire hazard. The deal with the fish tank is that you'll be puling a big draw for hours at a time, allowing the wires to heat up, creating more voltage drop, causeing more heat... until it gets bad. I'm pulling a second circuit for my tank this weekend for the same reason, i'm not tripping the breaker, but i'm running VERY close(i've tripped it with a 250W heater added). I just want extra room for security.

As for GFCI breakers, the wall plugs are defintily cheaper, but check out craigslist for GFCI breakers. Sadly they're probably stolen from worksites, but they're often on there.

Yes, smaller wire will build up excess heat when too much current is applied and that's exactly why it's against code to install a 20 amp breaker on a circuit wired with 14 guage wire! As long as you stick to the code requirements, 14 guage wire is just fine. Maybe it's not a huge fire hazard in some folks' eyes to switch to a 20 amp breaker for their hair dryer without upping to 12 guage wire, but I wouldn't advise doing this and aside from the safety hazard, your home insurance is now null and void with respect to potential electrical fires.

[2pts]

Originally Posted by mike31154

If that's the way they want to go, might as well install one big honking AFI/GFI as the main breaker and be done with it.

Actually, funny you should say that. In my main panel, the first 2 single pole breaker (covers both hot lines) is a breaker that is designed to protect the entire house (well the electrical system) from outside electrical surges such as lightning resulting in an electrical surge coming in through the meter. http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/Produc...ve-Device.aspx

Nothing to do with GFCI's or AFCI's but pretty cool none the less, mine came in a package with my main panel.