Making a case as to why NOT to bring home a Regal angel

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by Myka

These fish and many corals are caught from the wild, and you're killing them because you're impatient, have a hard time taking advice, and some amount of you just don't know any better. That's not fair to the fish or the environment, and that ****es me (and likely many others) off to no end. You already have a bunch of livestock in there that doesn't get along with each other. You're digging yourself a hole. If you want a bunch of big Angels, set up a FOWLR tank. I am passionate about this hobby, and when someone comes barging in like a Rhino in a China shoppe, I feel like someone should stick up for the delicate animals who have no choice but to be a part of it.

You and your hubby need to learn about brakes, oh and breaks. Like Time Out. You both need a Time Out from the tank. Leave it alone for awhile. Enjoy it for what it is - so far. Nothing good ever happens fast in a sw tank. Remember that. If it was my tank I wouldn't add a darn thing to it for at least 6 weeks. Not even a snail. You will continue to kill fish, lose money, and be disappointed if you keep carrying on like you are. I know you and your hubby are all excited about it, and want to see it "come alive", but right now the only thing holding your tank back from doing that is you and your hubby.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but you really need someone to give your heads a shake so you will listen better. Or...carry on throwing your money down the drain and killing beautiful animals with your impatience and lack of knowledge. Please learn to respect the animals more.

I kind of have to agree. There is no reason to post asking people why you shouldn't buy the fish--I think your posting looking for a reason to buy it. I seem to remember you just recently saying never again to angels. I could be wrong but if thats the case, what do you expect the answers to be?

I would solve that tang problem before anything else. That Sailfin is going to end up dead if you don't. Just because things calm down for a day or two doesn't mean the next 10 years are going to be peaceful.

[my2rotties]

Why beat around the bush? Just tell me how you feel...

If I did not care about my animals I would not come here and ask the questions I am asking. I am asking the questions BEFORE something goes wrong for opinions and help. I buy aqua cultured corals or frags from other canreef people. I did not order this particular fish nor would I ever have a fish taken off the reef for my own desire.

As sad as it is, people can buy whatever they want whenever they want... I have learned some lessons the hard way, so I come here and ask people whom know better then I do. Of course there are so many opinions out there, it is hard to know what the right thing to do really is.

This fish has been at the store for two months, and can stay there as long as needed. I don't want it to come home, and I believe my husband has decided against it as well. However I would like to be sure on his behalf while he decides. It is only fair to him and the fish. How do you know the next home won't kill that fish?

Perhaps you should reread my post rather then skim through it to see that I am really concerned and do really care. You do not know me, my husband and our love for animals. I have rescued so many animals of all sorts in my lifetime and know they think and feel and hurt. I admit I have made mistakes in this hobby, but can you honestly say that you have not? How many fish have you lost over time?

Patience is a virtue and this fish has been paid for for two months now... My trigger is paid for but has not come home yet either. I do my home work now, and make sure things are right.

My water params are mint, and I check them daily. The only fish to get sick were the angels, that is it. I have gone to almost every LFS in the city one with a body for examination and diagnosis. I take this seriously.

You can be ****ed off at me all you want, but I do care. I care enough to ask here and face being bashed on a public forum for the benefit of my fish. I can take the heat and I will still continue to ask when I need questions answered. I do not consider my fish replaceable and take their losses hard.

I wonder how many people are afraid to ask the questions because of retaliation from members of this forum. I only dare to think. Thanks to all for the numerous PMs, I will answer them all shortly.

Originally Posted by Myka

These fish and many corals are caught from the wild, and you're killing them because you're impatient, have a hard time taking advice, and some amount of you just don't know any better. That's not fair to the fish or the environment, and that ****es me (and likely many others) off to no end. You already have a bunch of livestock in there that doesn't get along with each other. You're digging yourself a hole. If you want a bunch of big Angels, set up a FOWLR tank. I am passionate about this hobby, and when someone comes barging in like a Rhino in a China shoppe, I feel like someone should stick up for the delicate animals who have no choice but to be a part of it.

You and your hubby need to learn about brakes, oh and breaks. Like Time Out. You both need a Time Out from the tank. Leave it alone for awhile. Enjoy it for what it is - so far. Nothing good ever happens fast in a sw tank. Remember that. If it was my tank I wouldn't add a darn thing to it for at least 6 weeks. Not even a snail. You will continue to kill fish, lose money, and be disappointed if you keep carrying on like you are. I know you and your hubby are all excited about it, and want to see it "come alive", but right now the only thing holding your tank back from doing that is you and your hubby.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but you really need someone to give your heads a shake so you will listen better. Or...carry on throwing your money down the drain and killing beautiful animals with your impatience and lack of knowledge. Please learn to respect the animals more.

[digital-audiophile]

Originally Posted by my2rotties

However my husband built the system and he buys what he wants to buy for all his hard work.

Marriages are supposed to be a partnership... if I told my wife that I was coming home with a pitbull because I work hard and deserve one she would divorce me... why?? ... because I would have not thought about the welfare of my daughter, my existing pets and the health and happiness of the dog, nor her concerns.





(BTW I do not intend to offend any pitbull owners.. I just use them as an example because they are painted as being a mean dog)

[levi1803]

Originally Posted by digital-audiophile

Marriages are supposed to be a partnership... if I told my wife that I was coming home with a pitbull because I work hard and deserve one she would divorce me... why?? ... because I would have not thought about the welfare of my daughter, my existing pets and the health and happiness of the dog, nor her concerns.





(BTW I do not intend to offend any pitbull owners.. I just use them as an example because they are painted as being a mean dog)

funny how they are painted as mean dogs, they are not, they are strong dogs that need a proper owner that's all, I work for the humane society and have seen very few pit bulls that are mean, and trust me, I have seen lots of supposedly "nice" dogs that are mean because they have a**holes for owners. Funny stat is that the most bites from a dog in Canada are from Golden Retrievers.

[my2rotties]

I rescued a pitbull from a dog fighting ring many years ago. She was beaten and starved... brought her home and she was terrified of everything in my house. She died of old age in 2007. Never had one problem with her, but I was patient and diligent with her. I have rescued two male rotties both on death row at the pound, starved and abandoned. Beautiful wonderful boys, thrown away. I lost Brodie three years ago to cancer, and Sabre just last fall to cancer. To take these dogs into my home to heal broken hearts was one of the best things I have ever done. I will do it again when there is another I see in need. I have a stafford now which is banned in Ontario because people think they are bad dogs... I do a lot of work fighting BSL and know many dogs come to the SPCA from Ontario. I used to train dogs and I find smaller breeds are the worst b=for biting. But retrievers are always thought to be angelic and you are right about the bite statistics. When I lived in Calgary I would cringe when I saw a pitbull or rottie on the front page of the paper... only those breeds make front page when there are how many bites in the city of Calgary every year?

Punish the deed not the breed. People buy these dogs and they need more care then a marine aquarium to be honest. They cannot be isolated and shoved in a kennel or pen in the back yard. They need a lot of exercise and are smarter them most people...

I see a stupid dog, the stupid owner is not too far away... dogs are amirror imagies of their owners... mine are awesome and well behaved, and I get compliments on how nice and peaceful they are...

Originally Posted by levi1803

funny how they are painted as mean dogs, they are not, they are strong dogs that need a proper owner that's all, I work for the humane society and have seen very few pit bulls that are mean, and trust me, I have seen lots of supposedly "nice" dogs that are mean because they have a**holes for owners. Funny stat is that the most bites from a dog in Canada are from Golden Retrievers.

[OceanicCorals-Ian-]

Most large angels are misdiagnosed IMO. The bacterial disease is secondary to the actual culprit, which is flukes. These flukes are very common on larger angelfish and it appears that the regals are more prone to them then the others.

These flukes are tranparent and difficult to see. Generally they attack the gills then start to bombard the entire fish. You can spot them in the eyes as being a little piece of white opaque flesh. The flukes causes the fish to stop eating and flash and scrape themselves on anything sharp to get rid of this pest.

The injury to the flashing is what causes inflammation and secondary bacterial infection. Treating the fish with antibacteria does not destroy the flukes and sooner or later the fish dies from not eating and wastes away. Truly a sad sight to see such a maginificent creature die like that.

My best advise is to quarintine all you fish and treat all angelfish with Praziquantal or PraziPro. Immerse your angel in freshwater bath with a high concentration of PraziPro. I do not condone or recommend a specific dosage but make sure that your PH is equivelant to the tank water's PH and that you are running an air stone. I usually dip the fish for about 20-30 minutes and repeat this process once a day until the flukes are gone.

You will see the flukes begin to lose hold on the fish after a few minutes. Shorter if you are using a higher dosage of PraziPro. They will appear as oval shaped and transparent. Usually, there are about a couple of dozens that will immediately begin to die off. If you find that a couple of fluke are not fully detaching themselves off of the fish; I use a small plastic pippette that is used from water testing and gently scrape the flukes off of the fish. At this time, the fish is usually very stressed and will be easily scared, so be gentle and patient. I believe that a fish can feel your energy just as a dog can feel it as well.

At this time I also use methelyne blue to help with the secondary infection. Methelyne blue is an antiseptic and will reduce the oxygen levels in the bath; this is why I suggest using an air stone in the bath; to combat the loss of oxygen from MB. I would recommend using a variable air pump so that you can control the amount of air bubbles. The more air bubbles the more turbulent the bath water will be and this in turn causes the fish to become more stressed. Find a happy medium and WATCh your fish carefully. If it begins to lay down on it's side; stop the bath. Try it again the next day. The main thing is to not stress the fish and DO NOT put it back into it's original tank as there could be other flukes in the water column waiting to attach themselves to the fish when you place it back.

Once the flukes are cleared the fish you will immediately see an improvement and hopefully it will take to eating right away. Coax it with some clams in a half shell as they are very finicky eaters; but once eating they can be fed anything and everything.

I have imported many angelfish and have lost many as well unfortunately. I too have misdiagnosed and mistreated and fish only to have it die on me eventually. Regals are beautiful animals and they are very difficult to keep. If your set up is only a few months old; I would not recommend you putting it in your system and if you do, QUARINTINE even if it's been at your LFS for some time.


I hope this helps you on your search to the answer of why Regals are so hard to keep.

Ian.

[my2rotties]

BLESS YOU!!! I posted about this very same thing awhile back when I was struggling with the losses of my angels. I narrowed out cyanide poisoning, but was told it was bacterial... then I found a post of RC speaking of flukes. I treated me entire system and I could see the flukes coming off of all my fish. Sadly my last angel was too far gone to save and he died. I did the best I could with the info I could find. I was asking questions when the first angel died, and could find no answers, then the second went, and I started finding info... I did my best for the third and really hoped he would make.

I had never heard of flukes or ever had been advised about them when I started looking for answers. It was too late for my fish but have learned a great deal. I had an angel from an LFS really try to help to get me through this whole thing, but he wants to be unnamed.

I will never add a fish to my system without using Praziquantal or PraziPro. I just wish I knew this before the losses.

Thanks for the insight...

Originally Posted by OceanicCorals

Most large angels are misdiagnosed IMO. The bacterial disease is secondary to the actual culprit, which is flukes. These flukes are very common on larger angelfish and it appears that the regals are more prone to them then the others.

These flukes are tranparent and difficult to see. Generally they attack the gills then start to bombard the entire fish. You can spot them in the eyes as being a little piece of white opaque flesh. The flukes causes the fish to stop eating and flash and scrape themselves on anything sharp to get rid of this pest.

The injury to the flashing is what causes inflammation and secondary bacterial infection. Treating the fish with antibacteria does not destroy the flukes and sooner or later the fish dies from not eating and wastes away. Truly a sad sight to see such a maginificent creature die like that.

My best advise is to quarintine all you fish and treat all angelfish with Praziquantal or PraziPro. Immerse your angel in freshwater bath with a high concentration of PraziPro. I do not condone or recommend a specific dosage but make sure that your PH is equivelant to the tank water's PH and that you are running an air stone. I usually dip the fish for about 20-30 minutes and repeat this process once a day until the flukes are gone.

You will see the flukes begin to lose hold on the fish after a few minutes. Shorter if you are using a higher dosage of PraziPro. They will appear as oval shaped and transparent. Usually, there are about a couple of dozens that will immediately begin to die off. If you find that a couple of fluke are not fully detaching themselves off of the fish; I use a small plastic pippette that is used from water testing and gently scrape the flukes off of the fish. At this time, the fish is usually very stressed and will be easily scared, so be gentle and patient. I believe that a fish can feel your energy just as a dog can feel it as well.

At this time I also use methelyne blue to help with the secondary infection. Methelyne blue is an antiseptic and will reduce the oxygen levels in the bath; this is why I suggest using an air stone in the bath; to combat the loss of oxygen from MB. I would recommend using a variable air pump so that you can control the amount of air bubbles. The more air bubbles the more turbulent the bath water will be and this in turn causes the fish to become more stressed. Find a happy medium and WATCh your fish carefully. If it begins to lay down on it's side; stop the bath. Try it again the next day. The main thing is to not stress the fish and DO NOT put it back into it's original tank as there could be other flukes in the water column waiting to attach themselves to the fish when you place it back.

Once the flukes are cleared the fish you will immediately see an improvement and hopefully it will take to eating right away. Coax it with some clams in a half shell as they are very finicky eaters; but once eating they can be fed anything and everything.

I have imported many angelfish and have lost many as well unfortunately. I too have misdiagnosed and mistreated and fish only to have it die on me eventually. Regals are beautiful animals and they are very difficult to keep. If your set up is only a few months old; I would not recommend you putting it in your system and if you do, QUARINTINE even if it's been at your LFS for some time.


I hope this helps you on your search to the answer of why Regals are so hard to keep.

Ian.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by digital-audiophile

(BTW I do not intend to offend any pitbull owners.. I just use them as an example because they are painted as being a mean dog)

Oh, but now we're offended anyway. Nyx is just pacing back and forth, I think she wants to bite you now!

[digital-audiophile]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Oh, but now we're offended anyway. Nyx is just pacing back and forth, I think she wants to bite you now!

Don't make me sic my cat on her!

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by digital-audiophile

Don't make me sic my cat on her!

She loves cats. Raw or roasted, doesn't matter