Rid-Volt Grounding Pole

[StirCrazy]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Titus:
Hello,

1) Circuit breaker will trip if there's no GFCI and there's a ground probe.<hr></blockquote>

well yes it will Titus but if it is a 15 amp breaker it wont trip untill it is overloaded (usaly about 10% above the rating)or untill it over heats (if it is a thermal model also)

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Titus:
2) Circuit breaker won't trip if there's no GFCI and no ground probe.<hr></blockquote>

yup it will as soom as you reach that amp raiting

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Titus:

3) GFCI will trip whether or not there is a ground probe.<hr></blockquote>

GFCI will trip as soon as a voltage leak is detected, it will still shock you but it won't electricute you

but as I have pointed out above it doesent matter what you use with a breaker it will not trip till you have overcame its current rating.
this is why I got blowen across my kitchen when I unpluged my dishwasher(I probably jumped as I was filling my pants [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] , big flash of light, smoke and a sore hand.. ), it would seam that my boddy provided another path for the power to flow and it was just enuf to trip the breaker after it burnt me. also wiped out my toster and my microwave. hehe

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Titus:

Bottom line, use a GFCI if you can. If you can't, use a ground probe.<hr></blockquote>

I agree with the GFCI but I would not recomend a ground probe near water with out a GFCI, that is like saying you can take a hair dryer in the tub with you as it has a grounded plug.

Steve

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

The squirrel example is fine....as long as the squirrel is touching an exposed wire (which isn't very often).

The reason why you can still get a zap with an GFCI is a couple of reasons :

1) You happen to run around the house with your socks on (or shoes) and you touch the tank. It is the same effect as zapping your siblings for fun. GFCI won't protect you from static electricity zaps [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] It won't kill you either.

2) GFCI is not working as fast as it should. It takes a while for GFCI to react. Sometimes 1ms...sometimes 5ms. So...you'll still get a little jolt. It's better than getting roasted.

Its the current that kills...and current as low as 15mA (or 0.015 A) is enough to give you a little jolt. 25mA will kill you. Breakers trip around 15A or higher and they are usually very slow. It only takes a second of 25mA to kill you.

Steve,

You should put a probe on both tank and sump. There is a remote possibility that the main circultation pump could stop and one of the tanks will loose their ground connectivity.


- Victor.

[Gordoe]

For what it's worth!

1. GFCI's measure for a difference in current flowing between the line and the neutral. "Supposed" to trip at 8mA, this is when humans begin to feel it.

2. Grounding probes complete the circuit to ground for stray voltages.(YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE STRAY VOLTAGES)The only unexplained voltage should come from inductance, and adding a grounding rod will add to the problem.

3. GFCI Receptacles have been known to fail... You have a body of water with electrical equipment in it, spend the money on a GFCI breaker and test it. Would you bring your hair dryer into the tub?

4. Use only CSA or ULC approved equipment in your tanks. You'd be suprised how much junk isn't approved in Canada.

5. That 15A breaker will roast you long before it trips if there is a fault, and you're the conductor! [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]

I'm done spewing... [img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img]

Gord


Hey Stircrazy, check the grounding of your house.. Toaster shouldn't have affected anything unless is was plugged into the same plug in the kitchen and it blew up your radio... In that case you broke the wrong tab of the split receptacle..

[StirCrazy]

Darren I brought it up as I had a falty toster that leaked a few volts into my ground and some how it screw up a few other things in my house.. took me a while to figure out what was going on. now what would have happened if I have a ground probe in my tank when this happened? I am not trying to misinform anyone and I tank offence to that as I was talking about personal experance not something I read on a board.

and even if you have a GFI you will still get a little zap befor the lights go out [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] I tested this one.. not intentionaly [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

the problem other people have been having is from salt creep getting into there non water proof light sockets so when the go to clean in there tank and bump the salt on the light they get zapped (another reason for water proof endcaps)

Also I don't think it is right to push a grounding probe unless you also push a GFI, MOST of the people who run tanks DON'T have a GFI but are getting the impression from others that aaa grounding probe will make everything ok
personaly I think it is nuts to use a grounding probe unless you have a GFI installed. and personaly I don't trust nothing anymore (for good reasons) so befor I do anywork in my tank I unplug the heater as that is the only thing in my tanks that could make me dance [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

my question is if you have a short in your tank shouldent the GFI trip?

having said all that I am building a power pannel in my stand with a couple GFI's and I will probably use a grounding probe also but if you have a sump and a tank and all your equipment is in the sump do you need one in the tank?

Steve

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]</p>

[StirCrazy]

Gord,
the problem was fixed I threw out the toster. and my ground wasn't conected in the house, which enede up being a good thing as the electrition said it probably would have started a fire if it was. I guess it has a small eirth (spelling?) but not larg enuf to trip the breaker
so when I was doing some stufff I guess I caused a surge and the breaker blew.

Hey this came up somewhare else and there was a post made last night and sence I don't like linking to "other boards" if I don't have to here is the post

From the Environmental Aquarist by John Tullock:
“Some hobbyists with engineering knowledge have correctly pointed out that grounding the aquarium may create a hazard for the aquarist, irrespective of any beneficial effect on the tank’s inhabitants. The wire leading from the water to a ground on a nearby electrical circuit provides a path for current to flow in the event of an accident, such as a heater breaking or a light fixture falling into the water.
Further, the ability of a ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) circuit breaker to interrupt the power flow in such an accident situation is thwarted by grounding the tank. Either problem is clearly a good reason not to ground the tank or to make absolutely certain all power sources are disconnected before putting one’s hand into the water.”

so it seams others have been checking into this and mybe wwe have all been wrong in recomending a GFCI with a grounding probe.. what do you al think (and none of this "I use it so it has to be right stuff") maby we have been doing things wrong.. woulden't be the first time [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Steve

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]</p>

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Do you have a good source/link for the info you just provided. We would like to analyize it a bit before commenting.

There are a couple of cases where grounding may not be the best idea...but those are extreme cases.

- Victor.

[StirCrazy]

I put whare it was from in the post


"From the Environmental Aquarist by John Tullock"

Steve

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

Okay...I went digging around. And here's what I found and I tried to answer them.

There are a couple ways where a ground probe can fail to protect you when a GFCI is present.

1) The short within the tank is so great that it creates a voltage drop between the tank water and the actual ground. In this situation, there is a couple of amps flowing through the probe. Due to the resistance of the probe, the water will actually have a non-ground voltage. This is bad...and you can get electricuted.

To fix...use a better ground probe. The current breed of ground probes have very thin and long wires -- hence high resistance or high backpressure (in plumbing terms). A little bit of current through the probe, and a big voltage drop occurs. Of course, this situation can definitely happen if there is no GFCI [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

What if there is a GFCI ? Well...now it really depends which device is shorting out. If it is the usual powerheads, heaters...no this can't happen - GFCI will go off.

Now...if it was the electronic ballast driven lamps shorting to the water...then GFCI will not go off. The electronic ballast are actually isolated power supplies that are not protected by GFCI and they (supppose) to share the same ground.

If you are using power conditioners or power backup (APS), then you need to be very careful. You'll need a GFCI on both sides of the APS...on the power company side and on the output of the APS. Otherwise, you'll be in the same situation as the electronic ballast.

2. There is another scenario where there is no short within the tank, but the ground probe is attached to a faulty ground wire. In other words, the ground on the AC outlet is not really ground. This can be cause by faulty devices within the house or around your tank (like a little giant pump). Usually, it is the pumps...so some find that plugging the probe directly to the AC outlet fixes this problem.

We are more sensitive to electricity when our hands are in salt water (especially, hands with a fresh wound) than when they are dry or in fresh water. Keep in mind that small electrical problems around salt water can give you a bigger electrical shock than normal.

One of the puzzling things is the statement that ground probes can cause problems. And it is true, but it depends on the situation. Some reefers have been shocked (slightly) when a ground probe is used. Usually it is one of the problems stated above. So, how does removing the probe prevent you from getting a shock ?

In the first case, the probe created the voltage. So, when it is removed, the water will be at the same voltage as the short (which is usually AC). If you touch the water, your whole body will be at the same voltage as AC. This works as long as your toes, feet, hands are not touch a ground. If you do...toast. Otherwise...you'll be fine.

In the second case, the bad ground caused the problem. If the water is not grounded to the bad ground, then you won't get shocked when you touch the water.

I still think that a proper probe and a GFCI is best. I also think reefs should wear shoes/slippers or stand on a plastic mat/chair when you work in you tank. Even better...turn off your electrical equipment when you work in your tank. Electricity is a dangerous thing to play with. I am sure electricians, like Gord, can share some great horror stories.

Hope that helps.

- Victor.

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]</p>