Supporting the LFS

[Invigor]

Originally Posted by Matt

My opinion though, is the same as others have posted. It doesn't matter what they charge. They don't own my business. If I choose to buy in Vancouver or Calgary or only trade with others, and that causes their business to become untenable, they will adjust their model, or close. If enough people continue to support them, because they either see value, or aren't aware of their options, they will continue to survive, and we'll all continue to wonder how.

I support the LFS when necessary. Honestly, although I've only been in this hobby a bit more than a year, I've gotten -or heard- enough bad advice from the LFS to last a lifetime. I enjoy browsing, and will buy when the price is good or impulse overcomes me.

I enjoy your post, I feel the same way.

[DanG]

It all comes down to the cost of doing business. Just because a yellow tang costs $4 for the LFS to buy, there's shipping and paperwork costs that get added in. Add to that the cost of having a suitable place to house the fish before it's sold, feeding it, possible meds, etc, etc. It goes on for ever.
I will definately support the local guy, but if he's blatantly trying to rip me off, then I won't buy anything from him.
I guess it's different because I've worked as a sales/purchasing manager for a computer store so I can take into account all the other costs associated with doing business.

[Invigor]

yea, but aren't places like J&L and ocean aquatics businesses too?

[Skimmerking]

Very well said everyone. let's look at some fish ok.
Say some one wants to buy a Leopard wrasse ok they retail for around $80 dollars well around here or more

So if a store buys one the price would be 5.60 US
and then they are chagred for shipping, duty, or what ever
taxes, and there 20% mark up and then you get your price.

now if you know the right people they will not mark up 20 % maybe 10% depending on the person too .but it will end up being the guy will mark up the most he can get away with.

THe reason is maybe he is the only store around and thinks he is the only one that can get it.. Pretty sad....

[TheReefGeek]

The cost of doing business in Edmonton is much cheaper than in Vancouver. For the fish business, shipping costs will be more, but overhead costs should make up for that.

Bottom line the extra shipping costs hold no weight, because it is cheaper for me to fly fish in from Vancouver to my house than to buy at the LFS, so the LFS here are marking up far more than just the extra shipping cost.

But it comes down to competition. They are free to charge prices that keep them in business. Whether they could generate more buiness at lower margins and make more $$$ overall is tough to say. But with high prices they don't get the same volume going through the shop, so they don't get as good a volume discount, which increase costs, so they have to markup more. A visious cycle that could eventually lead to too few customers willing to pay high prices, and the shop will go under.

Some vancouver retailers are obviously doing a great job at managing inventory, and have good purchasing skill and general business management skills, hats off to them.

[Murminator]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

Often you will see retailers push larger margins onto small items like snails. Like it or not, it's the way retial businesses work. Ask Future Shop how much they make on batteries or Safeway about laundry soap. Way back when I worked in a retail computer store I almost fell over when they told me how much they marked up printer cables. Small "sure sale" items always get padded. It's the economics of the business.

So does this mean laundry soap at Sobeys in Vancouver is half the price than it is in Edmonton? or batteries at Visions?........if so GROUP ORDER

[Beverly]

Long ago, I did a group buy of LR with 3-4 other reefers from an e-tailer. While the rock was nice looking, the shipment did not have the shapes and sizes of rocks I was looking for. Of course, I ended up curing and using the rock, but overall, I was dissatisfied with it even though it was half the price of lfs rock. Even though LR prices locally are absurdly high, imo, I still like to hand pick the rocks that go into my tanks. The satisfaction of having the right shapes and sizes of rock make up for the higher prices, at least to me.

The only fish I ever bought from an e-tailer were CB seahorses, with which I was very satisfied. However, the SH e-tailer was a small operator, and I spoke with the store's owner a few times before buying from him. He seemed to genuinely adore the animals in his care.

That said, I have been to LFSs in the city and found each of them lacking in one way or the other. I'm sure if I saw the fish in e-tailers' tanks, I would find each of them lacking in the same ways. Even though e-tailers may have significantly lower prices, I am unable to look at their tanks the way I can a lfs's tanks.

Before buying any fish from a lfs, I scope the place out over a period of weeks before buying fish from them. That way, I can observe over a period of time whether or not there may be disease in their banks of tanks, in which case, I will put off buying fish from them. When dealing with a lfs, I can also pick out the best looking fish if there are more than one of the species I'm interested in. For these benefits, I am willing to pay the premium prices LFSs ask.

I view buying corals the same way I view buying fish. With the exception of a small shipment of zoanthids I made two years ago, which I was not particularly impressed with, I do not buy corals from e-tailers. I like to look at corals in the tanks so I can choose the best looking ones from the variety the lfs has available. Granted, the lfs I usually deal with does not have many corals that I like or need, I am not so sure the corals from an e-tailer are that much better, though they may be.

With one lfs, I am able to buy some dry goods in bulk at prices pretty close to those from e-tailers. All I have to do is ask.

However, I had a recent large shipment of dry goods from an e-tailer, and plan to do another large shipment within a few weeks. And I'm ALWAYS in for a good salt group buy from either an e-tailer or lfs.

And, for the record, I am not a big consumer of fish or corals, anyway. I do not want or need to have the most unusual fish or corals in my tanks. As a matter of fact, I ridiculously understock my tanks with fish and corals compared to many tanks I have seen. For instance, in our 120g, most of the corals came to me as frags from other reefers, and I frag these corals from one place to another to fill in the spaces. The tank actually looks pretty good with these few soft corals grouped in various places throughout the tank. The three fish that live in the tank are all pretty good buddies. One of them will have an adult size of 5.5", so I keep in mind the eventual bioload this and the other fish in the tank will have on their glass box.

Low stocking levels suit me fine on so many levels....

First, I am not over utilizing wild fish or corals stocks from our oceans. I buy captive bred fish whenever possible, but, in all honesty, I do have more wild caught than CB fish.

Second, fewer fish makes maintenance so much easier and cheaper. I do not need skimmers or sumps on my tanks when I understock fish. The fish also have lots of room and not too many tankmates to deal with, lessening the chances of aggression overall.

Third is tied in with the second point, in that I do not have to be a heavy consumer of reefkeeping equipment. IMO, being a consumer of "stuff" of any kind isn't particularly environmentally friendly. Not having sumps, skimmers, special and expensive pumps to keep my tanks all going not only saves me money, but saves on the environment a bit. Yes, having a reef certainly does tax the environment in many ways. But I'm hoping the restraints I have on stocking my tanks lessens the impact I am personally having on the environment.

So, back to the lfs vs. e-tailers. I use them both for different reasons. If I can talk to a lfs and get close to e-tailer pricing on their products, I go with the lfs every time.

Cheers

[howdy20012002]

I am happy to see that we are actually having a discussion on this matter and not bashing each other.
I just want to clarify a couple of things I have said
Not all stores in alberta are overpriced. Some do have reasonable pricing on some items and I dont want to offend those that are trying to keep the costs of this hobby down to a reasonable amount.
I will be the first one to agree as well, that it is very nice to actually see what i am buying and not looking at a picture of what may or may not be the actual item i am buying.
As well, there are stores that I personally will not buy from because of the way the Livestock is handled and cared for along with the general atmosphere of the store. Just price isn't everything at all.
I also realize that you can't compare etailers verses local retail stores. it would be like comparing apples with oranges
However, what i do compare is the local retail stores here and the local stores in Vancouver.
Comparing the stores here and the stores in Vancouver, is IMO comparing apples verses apples. They both incur the same type of expenses. The only difference being the extra costs for shipping here. To me, that doesn't justify a double in price.
If one of the stores here reads these threads and maybe wants to justify that difference, i would honestly like to hear it.
One other note....i TOTALLY agree with Beverley about conservation. I personally buy Tank raised over Wild Caught anytime i can. I am a huge supporter of being socially responsible when it comes to this hobby and hopefully more and more people will push for this.

[Jason McK]

I imagine running a small business is a hand to mouth operation at the best of times. Mix in the fact that what your selling has the potential to die and become a huge liability and I think you have to be nuts to own a LFS. That said , I personally shop at 3 LFS only. They have my business for 3 main reasons; Customer service, Price and quality of product. Up until very recently I had never shopped on line. The only reason I have now is due to specific products that were not available locally.
I strongly believe in supporting the local guy and that means that on some things I will pay a higher price. Our LFS can't possibly compete with the Wal Mart of the E-FS and there fore they must win your business other ways, like customer service and better product. If they are not supplying better service and product then they don't really deserve your business.

I to am glad this thread was able to stay civil.

J

[TheReefGeek]

I strongly believe in supporting the local guy

I would too if I lived in BC.

That said I personally have only done 1 live order shipment (I joined a group buy in February) and everything else live I bought from a LFS I trust to give me quality live goods and I pay a premium for that quality which I dont mind at all.

The same cannot be said for hardware, there is no quality difference for hardware and I will shop the most economical way, unless I need something really quickly and have to buy local, or weight issues (sand, salt) make shipping charges ugly.

I figure if I can ship it to my house for cheaper, the LFS should have been able to do the same and still make a profit, or they are not operating efficiently. (Of course my background is operations management so I have no tolerance for poor business practices and inefficiency)