Ideas on quick phosphate control

[mikellini]

Again why you would do a slow drip into a filter sock to catch the precipitate

[Aquattro]

I set him up with foz down, now he's gotta deal with it The number of tangs has been significantly reduced.

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by mikellini

Again why you would do a slow drip into a filter sock to catch the precipitate

Assuming your socks never overflow then wouldn't be a problem , but if it doesn't then precipitate will make it through , I also I should note that it's recommended to use a 10 micron sock while most in our hobby are 200 micron

[TimT]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

there has been some reports of lanthanum chloride affecting Tangs of the genus Zebrasoma. any experience with this ?

I have been using Foz down in my system for at least 3 years. There is a 5yr old Purple Sailfin Tang in the tank with no HLLE. I have 3 Yellow Sailfin Tangs in the system as well and they have no HLLE. I use Foz Down on a tank with 2 Pacific Sailfin Tangs with no HLLE. There are many factors that contribute to HLLE. HLLE was around a long time before Foz Down ever came out. People have used Metronizadole to cure HLLE so it sounds like it's a parasite and not a water condition. I suspect poor water conditions will contribute to a fish getting HLLE.

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

plus there are some other inherent problem like removing the resultant flocculent and the potential for deposits on equipment and tank sides, which reportably is very hard to remove from the glass and causes problems with the impellers in pumps.

I don't bother removing the flocs but I do clean the sump every 6 months. I suspect the worry about flocs is just a fear of the unknown.

Hard Calcium deposits on the heaters, magnetic impellers and occasionally the glass is caused by an unbalanced buffering system. Usually the Calcium is too high. If you keep your Magnesium at at least 1350 or 3 times the Calcium level the precipitation should stop. If it doesn't then raise the Magnesium slowly until it does. Then correct the issue that is causing the imbalance. The buildup is very hard to remove but the Mag Float Scrape works very well on glass only. You must use extreme caution as it will easily scratch glass if you get sand or grit caught in it. Deposits on impellers and heaters can be removed with vinegar or diluted Muriatic Acid. Muriatic Acid is very nasty so extreme caution is recommended.

Originally Posted by Reefwars

Assuming your socks never overflow then wouldn't be a problem , but if it doesn't then precipitate will make it through , I also I should note that it's recommended to use a 10 micron sock while most in our hobby are 200 micron

If a person absolutely must remove the flocs then a 10 micron sock is recommended. I sent some to Reef Supply Canada a while ago so he may still have some available. The best way to use a filter sock is to have a small pump put water through the sock and a doser adds the diluted Foz Down into the top. If you don't have a doser available then you can add Foz Down into the ATO reservoir and put the ATO line into the filter sock.

If you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

Cheers,
Tim

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by TimT

I have been using Foz down in my system for at least 3 years. There is a 5yr old Purple Sailfin Tang in the tank with no HLLE. I have 3 Yellow Sailfin Tangs in the system as well and they have no HLLE. I use Foz Down on a tank with 2 Pacific Sailfin Tangs with no HLLE. There are many factors that contribute to HLLE. HLLE was around a long time before Foz Down ever came out. People have used Metronizadole to cure HLLE so it sounds like it's a parasite and not a water condition. I suspect poor water conditions will contribute to a fish getting HLLE.

I didn't mention HLLE at all so don't know where this is coming from. the issue that has been observed is rapid breathing, stress and erratic behaviour.

seams to start within a day or two of starting to dose and goes away with in a couple days after stopping. theory is the flock is affecting the gills but no one has done absolute testing so its just a theory. also reports of ill effects on certain types of SPS. now these seem to be in tanks that were dosed directly so that might have something to do with it also.

Originally Posted by TimT

I don't bother removing the flocs but I do clean the sump every 6 months. I suspect the worry about flocs is just a fear of the unknown.

the flock precipitate and attach to your rock, glass ect..

Originally Posted by TimT

Hard Calcium deposits on the heaters, magnetic impellers and occasionally the glass is caused by an unbalanced buffering system. Usually the Calcium is too high. If you keep your Magnesium at at least 1350 or 3 times the Calcium level the precipitation should stop. If it doesn't then raise the Magnesium slowly until it does. Then correct the issue that is causing the imbalance. The buildup is very hard to remove but the Mag Float Scrape works very well on glass only. You must use extreme caution as it will easily scratch glass if you get sand or grit caught in it. Deposits on impellers and heaters can be removed with vinegar or diluted Muriatic Acid. Muriatic Acid is very nasty so extreme caution is recommended.

Cheers,
Tim

Once again nothing to do with Calcium, I am talking about the phosphate that is precipitated out with the flock which has nothing to do with your alk/ca balance, just a fact of using this stuff to reduce phosphates. it is way way harder than ca precipitate and has been causing issues. I imagine Muriatic acid would still work though.

I think the best way I have seen it used to to have a separate filter tank set up where the stuff is dripped in and there is a cotton fiber filter that the water has to go through to get back to the main system. mind you people who do it this way are changing the cotton filter out every day or two for the first while.

Steve

[hillegom]

The way I understand the chemical reaction is that the Lanthium chloride combines with both calcium and phosphate to make a new compound that precipitates out and is supposed to be non dissolving after that. So the reaction depletes both calcium and phosphate
Mind you, I have never used it so cannot talk from experience.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by hillegom

The way I understand the chemical reaction is that the Lanthium chloride combines with both calcium and phosphate to make a new compound that precipitates out and is supposed to be non dissolving after that. So the reaction depletes both calcium and phosphate
Mind you, I have never used it so cannot talk from experience.

everything I have read shows it just creates lanthanum phosphate – LaPO4

I am looking at this as an addition for cooking old live rock, but I don't know if it will draw phosphates out of the rock as every who has played with it says there phosphates start rising again when they stop dosing.

Steve

[hillegom]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

everything I have read shows it just creates lanthanum phosphate – LaPO4

Steve

Thank you Steve, I stand corrected. I got the info word of mouth and have since done my own research.

[TimT]

Hi Steve,

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

I didn't mention HLLE at all

Sorry my bad. Guess I engaged fingers before brain was fully functioning from the coffee this morning. LoL

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

the issue that has been observed is rapid breathing, stress and erratic behaviour.

I have not observed this in my system with the Purple and Yellow Tangs but I dose small amounts of high purity Foz Down frequently, have a consistently low Phosphate level and don't have an old Scopas Tang. Here is the article to which you may be referring to.
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/l...and-tangs.aspx

Some things I noticed about the article.
1. A small tank of 75 gallons.
2. Most likely using the highly concentrated pool version as they dosed 1ml/day.
2. Only the Scopas Tang was affected
3. It looked like it had been in a fight with another tang and then developed a secondary bacterial infection.
4. After massive water change the fish begins to improve.
5. Lanthanum dosing stopped.

My questions are? Was it the massive water change that helped the fish get better or was it the discontinuing Lanthanum dosing? Did the whole episode have anything to do with Lanthanum at all? The author makes it quite clear that it is anecdotal info.

There are a lot of public aquariums that rely on Lanthanum to control phosphate in their displays. Some use sand filters to remove flocks but I doubt it catches all of them or any non reacted Lanthanum.

As for the SPS I have some fairly sensitive species such as Echinata and they are fine. I will be doing pics today so can take one of the Echinata.

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

the flock precipitate and attach to your rock, glass ect..

I have not observed this at all and I have both acrylic and glass tanks in the system. In the tank where I removed a lot of Phosphate(1400mg/l) I did not notice this either. I removed the Phosphate over a period of 2 weeks.

Here is the article that talks about the precipitation and SPS issues.
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/cont...ling-phosphate

It must be noted that Daniel removed 1.3mg/l in a couple of days. Here is the quote from the article "They were adapted to a phosphate concentration of 1.6 mg/l, and in consequence grew slowly, and it seems that when this concentration dropped to 0.3 mg/l within a few days as a result of the drastic treatment, the complex physiological processes that take place in these corals were thrown out of balance."

From both of these old articles one can deduce that:
1. Lanthanum may or may not affect old Scopas Tangs.
2. Don't use too much too fast as you will shock corals and may cause precipitates to form.

The ideal best practice may be to dose the Lanthanum in a separate tank and trickle the water through it as you suggested. Next best would to slowly add diluted Foz Down into a 5-10 micron sock and have a small pump pumping water from sump through it. At the end of things we may or may not find that the precautions were necessary. It is up to the hobbyist how they want to operate their reef tanks. It has been over 6 years since people have started using Lanthanum in their tanks. If there was an issue one would think it would be all over the internet. Just my Timbits. ;-)

Cheers,
Tim

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by TimT

Hi Steve,



Sorry my bad. Guess I engaged fingers before brain was fully functioning from the coffee this morning. LoL



I have not observed this in my system with the Purple and Yellow Tangs but I dose small amounts of high purity Foz Down frequently, have a consistently low Phosphate level and don't have an old Scopas Tang. Here is the article to which you may be referring to.
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/l...and-tangs.aspx

Some things I noticed about the article.
1. A small tank of 75 gallons.
2. Most likely using the highly concentrated pool version as they dosed 1ml/day.
2. Only the Scopas Tang was affected
3. It looked like it had been in a fight with another tang and then developed a secondary bacterial infection.
4. After massive water change the fish begins to improve.
5. Lanthanum dosing stopped.

My questions are? Was it the massive water change that helped the fish get better or was it the discontinuing Lanthanum dosing? Did the whole episode have anything to do with Lanthanum at all? The author makes it quite clear that it is anecdotal info.

There are a lot of public aquariums that rely on Lanthanum to control phosphate in their displays. Some use sand filters to remove flocks but I doubt it catches all of them or any non reacted Lanthanum.

As for the SPS I have some fairly sensitive species such as Echinata and they are fine. I will be doing pics today so can take one of the Echinata.



I have not observed this at all and I have both acrylic and glass tanks in the system. In the tank where I removed a lot of Phosphate(1400mg/l) I did not notice this either. I removed the Phosphate over a period of 2 weeks.

Here is the article that talks about the precipitation and SPS issues.
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/cont...ling-phosphate

It must be noted that Daniel removed 1.3mg/l in a couple of days. Here is the quote from the article "They were adapted to a phosphate concentration of 1.6 mg/l, and in consequence grew slowly, and it seems that when this concentration dropped to 0.3 mg/l within a few days as a result of the drastic treatment, the complex physiological processes that take place in these corals were thrown out of balance."

From both of these old articles one can deduce that:
1. Lanthanum may or may not affect old Scopas Tangs.
2. Don't use too much too fast as you will shock corals and may cause precipitates to form.

The ideal best practice may be to dose the Lanthanum in a separate tank and trickle the water through it as you suggested. Next best would to slowly add diluted Foz Down into a 5-10 micron sock and have a small pump pumping water from sump through it. At the end of things we may or may not find that the precautions were necessary. It is up to the hobbyist how they want to operate their reef tanks. It has been over 6 years since people have started using Lanthanum in their tanks. If there was an issue one would think it would be all over the internet. Just my Timbits. ;-)

Cheers,
Tim

Thanks for the replies Tim, that was one of the articles but there were about 3 more I was reading about the tangs, which had me wondering about it.. one instance and I wouldn't have even mentioned it.

6 years now... hmmm I've been under my rock far to long LOL

Have you ever stopped dosing ? and if so did your phosphates start creeping back up? I am looking at this for the purpose of cooking/curing a bunch of rock I have. I am going to basically do the real cooking, where you put it in total darkness with a heater, water flow and skimmer and frequent water changes go get the bug and bacterial life going but kill off any algae's and clean out the pours of the rock. My interest is will Lanthanum provide a permanent phosphate removal or will it have to be used long term?

Also from what I have been reading its effectiveness is reduced the lower the Phosphate levels and they seam to be recommending it in conjunction with other phosphate removers. Is this your experience also?

Thanks
Steve