WHAT IS A CORPORATION?

[Reef_Geek]

money enables society

love it or hate it, it is a thing that is inert. It is neither good nor bad. It enables civilizations to advance in complexity for better or worse.

Here's a prize winning book about it, if you seek truth.

Ascent of Money. Ferguson, Niall.

http://www.niallferguson.com/publica...scent-of-money

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by RuGlu6

Had to look up trolling... I feel the same way when people on here trying to make me and others upset by their remarks.

Response to any idea is always voluntarily, don't have to if you don't like it.
Just because someone has different view does not mean she or he deserves an attack from others.
Attacking free will, open mind and free thinking is easy to do, but what is the point? I don't mean you personally, just in general point of view.
If this thread is not interesting then why participate?

I respect opinions of others, but would also like to be respected.

Honestly i don't like personal questions that is why i did not answer it, sorry.
But if you insist i probably make more than you would guess.
Don't know what you wanted explained though? why i am so strange?

This "do for a living" goes back to my point that humans have to pay for living. All other creatures are free in that regard because; Fish, Lion, Bird or a Gazelle even though they have to adapt and survive they don't have to make money for being on this planet, don't have to go to work. Don't have to pay for a meal. They are truly free to do what they want. You can kill them, or train to do tricks, but you can not make them be slaves willingly.
And well, if you have read that far thank you for that.
cheers.

Sorry, I don't mean to offend. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from. And I don't care how much you make.

I have met all kinds of people with my work and personal life. And their opinions and views seem to very much be a consequence of their environment and life experiences. We are all different (thank goodness for that), but we do tend to form beliefs and opinions that shape our careers and lives.

Your point of being a slave to money just doesn't make sense to me, though. Money is a currency, which actually gives me more freedom of choice to improve my life, and even partake in discretionary activities like reefing.

Here is a simple example of the freedom and choice that money provides. If I need to dig a ditch in my yard for some reason, I could get out my shovel and go to work at it, or I could hire someone with an excavator and pay him. I can then use the time I saved doing something that I am good at, and use the the money I make from that to pay the guy, and still have money left over for other things.

Open minds are great, and our curious and persistent thirst for new knowledge is what has brought us to this point in our civilization (hopefully it won't destroy us too). We are also very social beings, and have learned that by working together and pooling our resources (as with corporations), we have managed to create a better and safer life for ourselves and fellow human beings. Of course there are still many parts of the world that are still catching up. And we're not done with wars and human slavery.

But with open minds, we also can't ignore reality. Yeah, many do try, with drugs, alcohol, and even video games. Living in a fantasy dreamland, or wishing for some utopia can be a great escape..., for a while. However, the laws of survival (of the fittest) do generally prevail.

[Reef_Geek]

I have a strange combo of undergrad degree in a life science, and masters in finance & marketing. (it's a long story)

Animals and people are the same in that it is the survival of the fittest, in differing environments with differing 'selection pressure'

It comes down to resources. Animals that are fittest have better resources for their given environment. Resources can be in the form of territory, access to food, access to mates (harems), and also its compliment of genes. Stronger, fitter individuals have better genes, better resistance to disease, better appearance to attract mates (sexually dimorphism).

People that are fittest in our environment are more capable to amass wealth, have better health to attract mates and resist disease, have social intelligence to navigate society.

What is fittest in a given environment is not fittest in a different environment. Example, take a wall street banker and put him in war torn Somalia...

It is still a free competition, and all about resources. It's neither good nor bad, it is just the way the ecosystem (or society) has changed, and what has prevailed (be it the system or its most prevalent characters in its individuals), they exist simply because that is what has worked out best.

it is really a long way of saying, don't hate the player, hate the game.

[reefermadness]

Originally Posted by MitchM

Here is a seed that should be planted in every junior high school student.
This should be required viewing.

It is an excellent animated 3 part documentary of how vital debt is to our economy.
The first 2 parts are available on Youtube no charge, the third part you need to order and it discusses an alternative "money supply."

I highly recommend everyone to watch at least the first 2 parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8

I watched the first part and I have to say it was really good. I like the idea of getting rid of the fractional reserve and central banking systems.

don't hate the player, hate the game.
Reply With Quote

words of wisdom.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by reefermadness

I watched the first part and I have to say it was really good. I like the idea of getting rid of the fractional reserve and central banking systems.

While "printing money" to provide liquidity is necessary at times, we are now in uncharted territory with what the US fed is doing with their endless QE. It was originally intended to stimulate the economy (using the theory that a rising tide will float all boats). But now the current US govt is totally dependent on it to finance their over spending. And any hint to slow down QE (as with the recent taper talks), causes fears of another economic slowdown. So now they are living on monetary heroin, and can't get off it.

Not sure where it will end either. They seem to be unable to cut back spending, but at some point the debt will overrun their ability to pay their obligations, ie default. And when China realizes that, they will stop buying US treasury bonds.

Then interest rates will spike, along with inflation, and the economy will really plummet (and not just a short term cold turkey withdrawal).

That is a possible scenario. We are definitely in uncharted territory now, with US govt spending/debt, and QE. And corporations who created the real money for the govts to spend in the past, aren't growing fast enough (top lines, which create the jobs) anymore to keep up. And eventually their bottom lines will suffer, too.

So, you zombie apocalypse guys might be right after all... I'm just glad that I live in Canada,... but we are not immune either.

[Reef_Geek]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

While "printing money" to provide liquidity is necessary at times, we are now in uncharted territory with what the US fed is doing with their endless QE. It was originally intended to stimulate the economy (using the theory that a rising tide will float all boats). But now the current US govt is totally dependent on it to finance their over spending. And any hint to slow down QE (as with the recent taper talks), causes fears of another economic slowdown. So now they are living on monetary heroin, and can't get off it.

Not sure where it will end either. They seem to be unable to cut back spending, but at some point the debt will overrun their ability to pay their obligations, ie default. And when China realizes that, they will stop buying US treasury bonds.

Then interest rates will spike, along with inflation, and the economy will really plummet (and not just a short term cold turkey withdrawal).

That is a possible scenario. We are definitely in uncharted territory now, with US govt spending/debt, and QE. And corporations who created the real money for the govts to spend in the past, aren't growing fast enough (top lines, which create the jobs) anymore to keep up. And eventually their bottom lines will suffer, too.

So, you zombie apocalypse guys might be right after all... I'm just glad that I live in Canada,... but we are not immune either.

the US debt is definitely scary. Increasing the debt ceiling is just deferring the problem to the next generation.

It seems that hyperinflation was a popular topic for a while, leading to that last commodity bubble with resource-based investments being over valued. And as soon as the public forgot about it, got some hints that the economy was coming out of the trough, people threw their money into equities again (I did too, lots of under-valued stuff... it was like money was on sale at the bank). But the enormous US debt never went away...

I really don't know how this is going to play out... but there's quite a few potential game changers that can be optimistic.

With Bakken oil and more effective hydraulic fracturing techniques, the US now has a new-found resource that is suggested to make them self sufficient on oil in a few decades. So barring any more spending on new wars and curbing its own spending, there's a chance of managing that debt. If the US reach a point where oil exports exceed imports, that will change the outlook.

With taxes. I've worked in the US and in Canada. Working in the US was great... very little income tax compared to Canada. So, government & money is just like a person with money. If you want less debt, make more money and spend less. If the government want less debt, make more money (increase taxes), and spend less. Yes, increasing taxes is political suicide, but it is still an option (and a necessary one at that). Printing more money just causes inflation and defers the problem... all economists know that and so do the guys in charge. They are just choosing the popular route versus the necessary painful route.

If the US goes into hyperinflation, Canada is equally screwed. Our number one trading partner will then not be able to afford our exports with devaluation of the USD against CAD. Something that cost a US business 1 USD to buy (where CAD is at par) may double or triple with a USD devaluation. Canadian economy will hurt, we're an export & resource-based country.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by Reef_Geek

the US debt is definitely scary. Increasing the debt ceiling is just deferring the problem to the next generation.

It seems that hyperinflation was a popular topic for a while, leading to that last commodity bubble with resource-based investments being over valued. And as soon as the public forgot about it, got some hints that the economy was coming out of the trough, people threw their money into equities again (I did too, lots of under-valued stuff... it was like money was on sale at the bank). But the enormous US debt never went away...

I really don't know how this is going to play out... but there's quite a few potential game changers that can be optimistic.

With Bakken oil and more effective hydraulic fracturing techniques, the US now has a new-found resource that is suggested to make them self sufficient on oil in a few decades. So barring any more spending on new wars and curbing its own spending, there's a chance of managing that debt. If the US reach a point where oil exports exceed imports, that will change the outlook.

With taxes. I've worked in the US and in Canada. Working in the US was great... very little income tax compared to Canada. So, government & money is just like a person with money. If you want less debt, make more money and spend less. If the government want less debt, make more money (increase taxes), and spend less. Yes, increasing taxes is political suicide, but it is still an option (and a necessary one at that). Printing more money just causes inflation and defers the problem... all economists know that and so do the guys in charge. They are just choosing the popular route versus the necessary painful route.

If the US goes into hyperinflation, Canada is equally screwed. Our number one trading partner will then not be able to afford our exports with devaluation of the USD against CAD. Something that cost a US business 1 USD to buy (where CAD is at par) may double or triple with a USD devaluation. Canadian economy will hurt, we're an export & resource-based country.

Agree... The US does have some room to increase taxes. But it is all about timing and doing it now may not help things, and just prolong the agony. Cutting spending on the other hand will hurt short term, but it could lead to substantial future growth which then could help pay for some of those future debt obligations and entitlements (and they have just added a 3rd one) spending.

And yes, Canada needs to continue to increase their trade away from the US, especially with Asia. That's where the future seems to be.

[Reef_Geek]

so I think that we can segue back to the origin idea of this thread... which I think was... an objection to being a slave to a corporation...

A corporation is a subset system within the overall system (our economy, our society). We can be part of it actively (daily rat race), passively (not give it much thought), or reject it (go live in the mountains and prep for apocalypse). In parts of the world where there's higher standards of living, better quality of life, longer life expectancy... first world nations have our type of 'system' of society. These similar systems exist in different first world nations, not due to coincidence, not due to some artificial cause, not by accident... these systems continue successfully because they naturally worked out to prevail.


If I am lucky enough to live in such a system, I can choose to learn it, to understand it, and make the most of it for myself as best that I can, or I can choose to not understand it, get frustrated by it, object to it, and not have as good of a time... for the short time that I am alive in this world

Love it or hate it, money doesn't care, and money doesn't care that you don't understand how it works. So if I want the best quality of life that I can possibly have, it would make the most sense for me to understand how money works, and learn what are the forces that shape my best bet on my resources/wealth.

So I'm not working my butt off for the corporation for no reason. I am a shareholder as an employee too, thus, the corporation also works for me, the board of directors work for me.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by Reef_Geek

So I'm not working my butt off for the corporation for no reason. I am a shareholder as an employee too, thus, the corporation also works for me, the board of directors work for me.

Yup, sounds like your head is screwed on solid.... Probably don't have to tell you this, but when it comes to personal finance, debt is the enemy. I was never so happy (well, almost) as the day I paid off my last mortgage.

While I never deprived myself or my family, I was always frugal (and still am), and it has paid off for me. I was able to retire early, and am thoroughly enjoying life. And I have no problem keeping busy (reefing ensures that), as my friends are always asking me what I do with my time.

[Reef_Geek]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

Yup, sounds like your head is screwed on solid.... Probably don't have to tell you this, but when it comes to personal finance, debt is the enemy. I was never so happy (well, almost) as the day I paid off my last mortgage.

Thanks.

I think it's about using leverage (debt) with good business sense. Leverage is a very powerful tool. There's bad debt and good debt.

For example, I can't afford to buy my home out right, so I have a mortgage. I buy a property valued appropriately and at the right time/price. I'm not stretching to buy more than what I need, so my mortgage is affordable, and I have enough savings/investments that can handle a rate hike at refinancing. It is forced savings compared to rent.

Another example, I need a car, I could buy it out right... or, I could take advantage of low interest rates. At 2.5% APR... (sometimes zero for other brands), well, I could make more return on investment than 2.5% by keeping my investments rather than cashing them out to pay off the car.

Taking out a line of credit against a property's equity to wisely re-invest... for example to add a bathroom or finish a basement... not to build a pool or buy a Jacuzzi... so long as it can be justified in increase in property value, or additional loan payments and interest is recoverable proportionately (cap rate) in rental income. (and no, in wall aquariums do not increase property value)

Of course, I stay away from bad debt... carrying a credit card balance is a horrendous waste of money. I don't think there's value in leasing vehicles unless it can be a tax write off item for a business... etc.

But yes, I am looking forward to a day long into the future when 40% of my monthly cash flow doesn't get sucked into mortgage payments! It's far far away, but it's a heaven I've heard of!