Tank EULOGY from a beginner

[asylumdown]

Marine ich and freshwater ich are similar organisms in a lot of ways, but they're different species with different pathologies. It can go very quickly, as the parasites tend to build up silently over a couple of generations, then when their numbers are truly astronomical, your fish suddenly falls apart on you.

The one thing about it however, is that it never really "runs its course". If C. irritans is present in a system, and that system has fish in it, all the research and anecdotal evidence indicates that it will continue to persist. The existing fish will likely develop a partial immunity and you will likely stop seeing symptoms over time, but the parasite will most definitely still be there. If you search the various forums, you will find a variety of opinions on whether or not this is a problem, but the one thing that it will guarantee is that if you don't take the steps necessary to eliminate it from your tank, it will always be a gamble for you to add ich prone or delicate fish. Before my first and (thankfully) only total tank wipeout, I managed to reach a level of equilibrium with my established fish - none died, and very few ever showed visible symptoms. However, my rate of loss for new fish (especially ich prone fish like tangs) was around 70%. Even with a good QT and fattening up, a fish's stress levels are highest and their immunological defenses are lowest when they're first introduced to a new community, which is exactly the conditions ich opportunistically exploits.

Whether or not you can ever have an "ich free" tank, is a contentious point of debate, but you can go through steps to clear your display of it as much as possible. If your yellow tang survives and you put him back in an infected display that has not been run free of fish long enough to break ich's life cycle, you will very likely end up in the same position with that fish again. Over time it may develop enough of an immune response to cope with a moderate level of infection, but it will need to be in really good shape to do that.

The only way to let ich "run its course" is to remove all fish from the display, treat them all in a separate QT system using one the methods that are known to be effective (there's really only 4), and let the display tank run fallow for 9-12 weeks (depending on who you ask, I err on the longer side as it would suck to waste 9 weeks if it wasn't long enough).

The other option is to just deal with ich, a many on here do, which is possible long term, but you will always have problems adding new, stressed out, immunologically naive fish and may never have success with the more ich prone species. You will also need to maintain optimal diet and conditions for the fish that do adapt so the parasite never gets the upper hand. If that's the route you go, I'd still wait a couple months before adding new fish, having three fish kack it on you will have contributed a pretty significant number of encysted ich tomonts to your system. While you'll never clear it without going fallow, having the tank populated by ich resistant fish *should* mean that over time the "parasite bank" will deplete, as fewer will live to complete the life cycle. The less of it present when you do add more fish, the better.

[Magickiwi]

Originally Posted by asylumdown

Marine ich and freshwater ich are similar organisms in a lot of ways, but they're different species with different pathologies. It can go very quickly, as the parasites tend to build up silently over a couple of generations, then when their numbers are truly astronomical, your fish suddenly falls apart on you.

The one thing about it however, is that it never really "runs its course". If C. irritans is present in a system, and that system has fish in it, all the research and anecdotal evidence indicates that it will continue to persist. The existing fish will likely develop a partial immunity and you will likely stop seeing symptoms over time, but the parasite will most definitely still be there. If you search the various forums, you will find a variety of opinions on whether or not this is a problem, but the one thing that it will guarantee is that if you don't take the steps necessary to eliminate it from your tank, it will always be a gamble for you to add ich prone or delicate fish. Before my first and (thankfully) only total tank wipeout, I managed to reach a level of equilibrium with my established fish - none died, and very few ever showed visible symptoms. However, my rate of loss for new fish (especially ich prone fish like tangs) was around 70%. Even with a good QT and fattening up, a fish's stress levels are highest and their immunological defenses are lowest when they're first introduced to a new community, which is exactly the conditions ich opportunistically exploits.

Whether or not you can ever have an "ich free" tank, is a contentious point of debate, but you can go through steps to clear your display of it as much as possible. If your yellow tang survives and you put him back in an infected display that has not been run free of fish long enough to break ich's life cycle, you will very likely end up in the same position with that fish again. Over time it may develop enough of an immune response to cope with a moderate level of infection, but it will need to be in really good shape to do that.

The only way to let ich "run its course" is to remove all fish from the display, treat them all in a separate QT system using one the methods that are known to be effective (there's really only 4), and let the display tank run fallow for 9-12 weeks (depending on who you ask, I err on the longer side as it would suck to waste 9 weeks if it wasn't long enough).

The other option is to just deal with ich, a many on here do, which is possible long term, but you will always have problems adding new, stressed out, immunologically naive fish and may never have success with the more ich prone species. You will also need to maintain optimal diet and conditions for the fish that do adapt so the parasite never gets the upper hand. If that's the route you go, I'd still wait a couple months before adding new fish, having three fish kack it on you will have contributed a pretty significant number of encysted ich tomonts to your system. While you'll never clear it without going fallow, having the tank populated by ich resistant fish *should* mean that over time the "parasite bank" will deplete, as fewer will live to complete the life cycle. The less of it present when you do add more fish, the better.

Or buy some cleaner shrimp and let them pick the parasites off your fish.

[reefwars]

some other options is the tank transfer method and hyposalinity , both are proven to work.

i find hypo the easiest and less work but does not treat MI

for the record...cleaner shrimp, fish etc. do not cure fish of ich lol they clean dying flesh, small parasites etc. while it may much the odd ich parasite it will not cure a fish thats already showing signs or keep ich out of a tank.


i just ran all my fish through a 2 mth hypo treat ment , kept the tanks at 1.009 for 2 mths and ran it with a few pieces of liverock. did a water change twice:P

[geweagle]

Reefwars,

Thank you. I started to drop the salinity last night. I will do so slowly, But I would not have thought to go that low. i will see how it goes.

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by geweagle

Reefwars,

Thank you. I started to drop the salinity last night. I will do so slowly, But I would not have thought to go that low. i will see how it goes.

remember , no sand its a big one to follow , i wouldnt drop your display to hypo but set up a small 10-20g tank much easier and safer overall.

its basic so a powerhead, heater and some liverock. lights arnt necessary unless the tank is in pitch black and add some large abs or pvc for places to hide.

feed little and soak in garlic.

you can go as high as 1.011 i believe to still be effective but i cant recall for sure atm.

remember all fish need to be qt'd , and while doing hypo the display needs to be fishless for 8-10 weeks , shrimps and corals are fine but no fish what so ever or its a lost cause.

use a refractometer when doing hypo and a hydrometer is not accurate even the better ones are horrible

gl!!

[reefwars]

while i was doing hypo i would switch out a piece of rock here and there just to keep things stable, although the bacteria can survive hypo 100% all the food the rock houses like pods , coraline etc. will perish so if you have say a scooter or wrasses like i do then it helps to add a fresh food source back to them.

also not all fish can be hypo'd some do not do well like leopards,mandarins, sand sifters etc.

good luck friend

[geweagle]

Thanks Reefwars,

I have been reading and it confrimes everything you said. I am fortunately I have a small tanks. It does have sand which I was wondering about. I thought maybe it should go. Which is what you have confirmed. I will go to a refractometer. The display tank will be cleared of all fish and will have some leathers, a couple peppermint shimp and a few crabs. I will not do the hypo on that tank. just leave fowl. I will keep skimmer etc running. And leave live rock there. But maybe as you suggested cycle some into the hypo tank. But some have leathers and palyp attached so I cannot move those as I understand they will not survive. Looking like one clown may have some cryst now. Still healthy and eatting but just confirms that the ICH life cycles is alive and well.

Got to go through this because otherwise likely never be able to keep any fish.

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by Magickiwi

Or buy some cleaner shrimp and let them pick the parasites off your fish.

Unfortunately, no cleaning organism has ever been demonstrated to actually eat Cryptocaryon irritans. The parasites bury themselves too deep in the skin of the fish for a commensal cleaner to get them off. What's far more common is that by the time people notice the pustules on the fish, they're nearly mature and ready to drop off. Then they see their cleaner shrimp/wrasse paying attention to the fish, and the next day, the pustule is gone. What has actually happened is that the trophont had it's fill, and sometime in the middle of the night while the fish was sleeping, it dropped off to become a tomont. A cleaner organism can be a useful addition for other reasons (though in some cases being constantly pestered by a cleaner fish or shrimp that you can't get away from can actually be stressful for a fish), but as far as a control agent for marine ich, they are completely useless.