Data: Wrong; Sustainability: Don't care; Robert Wintner: Aquarium trade should stop!

[Myka]

Originally Posted by Dearth

That is why tank bred fish and coral should be put on the forefront they tend to be much hardier and the likely hood of tank crashes are diminished reducing mass death

The trouble is that it often costs more money to raise captive bred fish than it costs to import wild caught fish. Captive bred fish are a renewable resource, but so many people care too little to pay a few bucks more. Fish like Angelfish, Tangs, and Basslets involve such a lengthy rearing time that a reasonable captive bred cost is not very likely except maybe at large facilities where quantity of fish produced could decrease the per fish cost.

You have the LFS owner who can't see past dollar signs (although for good reason). He sees the wild caught fish for half the price on the fish list and can't seem to grasp the fact that landed cost (shipping, permits, losses) will often make a basic captive bred fish cheaper, like Clownfish, Dottybacks, Seahorses, Gobies, Blennies, Cardinals, and even Mandarins. He refuses to pay a reasonable price for the captive bred fish so few small scale captive breeding programs actually have any sort of profit. Most of the LFS owners involved here on CanReef tend to be fairly advanced, and more open to small scale captive breeding programs.

You have the typical reefer who, on average, has been in the hobby for 18 months. He has been dumping money into his system for 18 months now and sees a wild caught fish for a few bucks cheaper than a captive bred fish. Having been in the hobby for only 18 months he doesn't understand the pros and cons of captive bred VS wild caught fish. He just wants the cheaper fish.

Of course there are exceptions to every "rule" and people are starting to change, but it takes time, and it takes people talking. Getting new up-to-date information to LFS owners (hey some of them are still in the 80s) and reef keepers by having more people care enough to share sustainability concerns is fundamental.

All or nothing resolves little and provides no progressive action.

[Dearth]

Originally Posted by Myka

The trouble is that it often costs more money to raise captive bred fish than it costs to import wild caught fish. Captive bred fish are a renewable resource, but so many people care too little to pay a few bucks more. Fish like Angelfish, Tangs, and Basslets involve such a lengthy rearing time that a reasonable captive bred cost is not very likely except maybe at large facilities where quantity of fish produced could decrease the per fish cost.

You have the LFS owner who can't see past dollar signs (although for good reason). He sees the wild caught fish for half the price on the fish list and can't seem to grasp the fact that landed cost (shipping, permits, losses) will often make a basic captive bred fish cheaper, like Clownfish, Dottybacks, Seahorses, Gobies, Blennies, Cardinals, and even Mandarins. He refuses to pay a reasonable price for the captive bred fish so few small scale captive breeding programs actually have any sort of profit. Most of the LFS owners involved here on CanReef tend to be fairly advanced, and more open to small scale captive breeding programs.

You have the typical reefer who, on average, has been in the hobby for 18 months. He has been dumping money into his system for 18 months now and sees a wild caught fish for a few bucks cheaper than a captive bred fish. Having been in the hobby for only 18 months he doesn't understand the pros and cons of captive bred VS wild caught fish. He just wants the cheaper fish.

Of course there are exceptions to every "rule" and people are starting to change, but it takes time, and it takes people talking. Getting new up-to-date information to LFS owners (hey some of them are still in the 80s) and reef keepers by having more people care enough to share sustainability concerns is fundamental.

All or nothing resolves little and provides no progressive action.

Well put but I guess I am an exception to the rule as having been a freshie for 12 yrs I learned to go tank bred where I could it saved me a ton of money in the long run

[gobytron]

This is why the choice SHOULD be taken out of people's hands...

[Bayside Corals]

Originally Posted by Myka

You have the LFS owner who can't see past dollar signs (although for good reason). He sees the wild caught fish for half the price on the fish list and can't seem to grasp the fact that landed cost (shipping, permits, losses) will often make a basic captive bred fish cheaper, like Clownfish, Dottybacks, Seahorses, Gobies, Blennies, Cardinals, and even Mandarins. He refuses to pay a reasonable price for the captive bred fish so few small scale captive breeding programs actually have any sort of profit. Most of the LFS owners involved here on CanReef tend to be fairly advanced, and more open to small scale captive breeding programs.

Actually I don't think this is true. In most cases it's up to the customer. The LFS will bring in what the customer wants. The fact is, the LFS pays more for the captive bred clowns versus the wild caught clowns. So they charge more for the captive bred ones because they pay more. The customer walks into the store and sees a cheap clown fish and they see a more expensive one that looks identical. Some customers will ask questions on why this clown is more than the other one and some customers won't. Some customers once informed will buy the more expensive captive bred clown but some still will not. I can guarantee that if every customer choose only to buy captive bred fish and nothing else. That every LFS would have a fully stocked line of what ever captive bred fish was available to them. At the end of the day the customers make the decisions on what the LFS brings in. If the customers don't buy the LFS goes out of business.

[saltcreep]

Originally Posted by Myka

The trouble is that it often costs more money to raise captive bred fish than it costs to import wild caught fish. Captive bred fish are a renewable resource, but so many people care too little to pay a few bucks more. Fish like Angelfish, Tangs, and Basslets involve such a lengthy rearing time that a reasonable captive bred cost is not very likely except maybe at large facilities where quantity of fish produced could decrease the per fish cost.

Not necessarily. The scale of the operation is just larger and may not allow for a unit cost decrease in the production of the fish. The costs for many species of fish would still be far above what the average consumer would be willing to spend.

You have the LFS owner who can't see past dollar signs (although for good reason). He sees the wild caught fish for half the price on the fish list and can't seem to grasp the fact that landed cost (shipping, permits, losses) will often make a basic captive bred fish cheaper, like Clownfish, Dottybacks, Seahorses, Gobies, Blennies, Cardinals, and even Mandarins. He refuses to pay a reasonable price for the captive bred fish so few small scale captive breeding programs actually have any sort of profit. Most of the LFS owners involved here on CanReef tend to be fairly advanced, and more open to small scale captive breeding programs.

The LFS owner needs to keep the dollar signs in sight. If they don't, and I've seen it first hand, they are done. They run a business to make a profit. To some, the distribution chain of these animals simply don't make it beneficial (from a financial sense) to purchase them.

As for refusing to pay a "reasonable price", what does that mean? A LFS will refuse to pay a price if that price is at or above a price point where they cannot sell that product for a reasonable return (if at all). This isn't a charity.

You have the typical reefer who, on average, has been in the hobby for 18 months. He has been dumping money into his system for 18 months now and sees a wild caught fish for a few bucks cheaper than a captive bred fish. Having been in the hobby for only 18 months he doesn't understand the pros and cons of captive bred VS wild caught fish. He just wants the cheaper fish.

This is what the average reefer is all about, period. I want it cheaper. Here is a quote from some time ago, but I think for the general reefing public, this sentiment holds true today and can be applied to the wild collected versus the captive bred argument.

"Lets face it, how many of us would pay $99 for a guaranteed NON cyanide caught fish when we can get the same fish with out knowing the real history for $49.... I don't know about you but, my pocket book would certainly over ride the moral dilema of purchasing fish that MAY have been cyanide caught."

The one important factor that you, and others address, is that if wild collection was banned, the industry would collapse. There are not enough species available and actual numbers of those fish to sustain the industry. Period.

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by Myka

You have the LFS owner who can't see past dollar signs (although for good reason). He sees the wild caught fish for half the price on the fish list and can't seem to grasp the fact that landed cost (shipping, permits, losses) will often make a basic captive bred fish cheaper, like Clownfish, Dottybacks, Seahorses, Gobies, Blennies, Cardinals, and even Mandarins. He refuses to pay a reasonable price for the captive bred fish so few small scale captive breeding programs actually have any sort of profit. Most of the LFS owners involved here on CanReef tend to be fairly advanced, and more open to small scale captive breeding programs.

Are you implicating that the typical small business owner has not even the slightest notion regarding their own finances? That is a ridiculous and heavy handed assessment of the situation! Where's your evidence? Cite your sources?

No, they do not land at the same price. No, they are not identical looking animals.

Allow me to illustrate:

Typical captive-bred orchid dottyback






Typical wild-caught orchid dottyback






Typical captive-bred fang blenny







Typical wild-caught fang blenny






There is a noticeable and obvious difference in quality between these samples. This is even more obvious in the most ubiquitous captive-bred marine fish of them all, the clownfish. Next time you're looking at a CB clownfish that isn't a $300+ Grade A Picasso or whatever, look at its gills and the profile of its head. More often than not, they'll be flared and notched, in that order.

I'm all for captive rearing and all and there are definitely a few farms out there that push out high quality stock (Sustainable Aquatics in Jefferson City, TN is one of them), but the vast majority (I'm looking at you, ORA) don't seem to care about letting out only top quality fish if they're not worth triple digits. This is something that should not be supported any more than one would support a puppy mill. Yes, I'm going there. Ethics all-in.

Tack onto this that the average LANDED price (no, not every city has access to a local breeder) is often 1.5-10x higher than the LANDED price of a WC animal and you'll be quick to conclude what the "true" motivations of a typical LFS owner are.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by albert_dao

Are you implicating that the typical small business owner has not even the slightest notion regarding their own finances? That is a ridiculous and heavy handed assessment of the situation! Where's your evidence? Cite your sources?

Many of them yes. The old school thought is to make money off the dry goods and the livestock just draw people in. Many aquarium stores expect and take a loss on livestock. Box stores and mom and pop "pet stores" tend to be in this category.

Evidence and sources? I don't think they will let me show you their price lists, losses, and finances.

No, they do not land at the same price. No, they are not identical looking animals.
There is a noticeable and obvious difference in quality between these samples. This is even more obvious in the most ubiquitous captive-bred marine fish of them all, the clownfish. Next time you're looking at a CB clownfish that isn't a $300+ Grade A Picasso or whatever, look at its gills and the profile of its head. More often than not, they'll be flared and notched, in that order.

I'm all for captive rearing and all and there are definitely a few farms out there that push out high quality stock (Sustainable Aquatics in Jefferson City, TN is one of them), but the vast majority (I'm looking at you, ORA) don't seem to care about letting out only top quality fish if they're not worth triple digits. This is something that should not be supported any more than one would support a puppy mill. Yes, I'm going there. Ethics all-in.

ORA is often chided for very poor culling practices. Many of the defects that are commonly seen in Clownfish are not genetic, rather poor culturing conditions. Even something as simple as misbarring is controlled with diet and water quality.

Good quality rearing techniques provide specimens of wild caught quality. Take Sustainable Aquatics for example. Compare a SA Clownfish to an ORA Clownfish...there is no comparison. The SA Clownfish is many times nicer than an ORA Clownfish. I have both wild caught and captive bred Orchid Dottybacks, and if I didn't tell you which one was which you would never know. Sure, there are terrible examples of captive bred fish out there, but there are also excellent examples.

[albert_dao]

Originally Posted by Myka

Many of them yes. The old school thought is to make money off the dry goods and the livestock just draw people in. Many aquarium stores expect and take a loss on livestock. Box stores and mom and pop "pet stores" tend to be in this category.

What? As an employee of dry goods wholesaler/manufacturer, I would most assuredly appreciate it if you pointed me towards these dry goods-do gooders. Barring that, I must strongly disagree. With any store worth its salt (tee hee), the exact opposite is true. Most stores rely on their livestock to carry their bottom line. Why? Because they don't want to compete in the same arena with the "big boys", businesses that have a lot of capital invested into their online marketplace and dry goods inventory. It's just not worth it to grind out the 20-35% margin vs. 100-500%+ (frags) margin on livestock.

Want some evidence? Take a look at some of the more respected businesses Stateside:

http://www.worldwidecorals.com/

http://www.aquatouch.com/index.html

http://www.vividaquariums.com/

etc, etc... Compare their livestock sections to their dry goods sections. These guys are simply not interested in competing with the likes or Premium Aquatics or BRS. Well, guess what, there are a hundred times more of these sorts of businesses than there are Premiums or BRS's. In Canada, one need look no further than J&L Aquatics vs. the world to see that the trend is reiterative rather than unique. J&L, Premium, BRS, etc have all done an incredible job of securing their place within the industry and, in doing so, have carved out a designation for most of the other businesses to make their niche (livestock).

Originally Posted by Myka

Evidence and sources? I don't think they will let me show you their price lists, losses, and finances.

Then I suppose we come to a standstill. If possible, I am hesitant to make a call to authority, but in this case, it is warranted; I have a fairly wide bird's eye view of the industry and your impression is the exception rather than the rule.

Originally Posted by Myka

ORA is often chided for very poor culling practices. Many of the defects that are commonly seen in Clownfish are not genetic, rather poor culturing conditions. Even something as simple as misbarring is controlled with diet and water quality.

ORA is representative of the CB livestock sectional.

Originally Posted by Myka

Good quality rearing techniques provide specimens of wild caught quality. Take Sustainable Aquatics for example. Compare a SA Clownfish to an ORA Clownfish...there is no comparison. The SA Clownfish is many times nicer than an ORA Clownfish. I have both wild caught and captive bred Orchid Dottybacks, and if I didn't tell you which one was which you would never know. Sure, there are terrible examples of captive bred fish out there, but there are also excellent examples.

Again, your fish/experience is the exception, not the rule.

[gobytron]

To be honest, it's because I feel at this point, anything is going to be too little too late.

At the end of the day, I firmly believe we won't have much in the way of marine aquatic life sometime in the next 50 years.

Whether its global warming or acidification the signs are already apparent that this is a sick ecosystem...

Short of some technological miracle solution...we're probably the last reefers one way or the other...


Do you really think millions of people feed their families from this hobby?

That's a lot more than I would guess.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by gobytron

To be honest, it's because I feel at this point, anything is going to be too little too late.

At the end of the day, I firmly believe we won't have much in the way of marine aquatic life sometime in the next 50 years.

Whether its global warming or acidification the signs are already apparent that this is a sick ecosystem...

Short of some technological miracle solution...we're probably the last reefers one way or the other...


Do you really think millions of people feed their families from this hobby?

That's a lot more than I would guess.

I tend to agree with you, although I would give it a longer timeline, probably more like 100 years, maybe 200. Earth is resilient, look at what it has put up with already. I think it would be interesting to look into the future and see Earth's human population 1000 years from now.

Do I think that millions of people feed their families through the aquarium trade? The entire aquarium trade, yes. Not so many just in the MO trade. Think of all the collectors (corals, fish, rock), wholesalers, shippers, LFS owners and employees, captive breeders, biologists, equipment manufacturers. Not all of them rely on the MO trade 100%, but for many of them it makes a big portion of their livelihood.