Cleaner Wrasse??

[Myka]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

Naesco. This is the same guy that posts regularly to tell people not to keep Copperbands in captivity. When questioned if he ever had one personally, he admitted buying one when he first started out in the hobby and not knowing how to properly take care of it. Of course it died on him. So just because he was irresponsible, now he thinks no one should be keeping them.

I would have to go ahead and agree with Naesco, although sending the message a little more diplomatically would likely result in more positive responses.

Cleaner wrasse may indeed be difficult (or not) to keep in captivity. But it would be nice if we had a more constructive discussion about why they die early, and how to keep them successfully.

Cleaner Wrasse (and Copperband Butterflies, among many other fish) really are difficult to keep in captivity. Some people do have success even though most appear not to do anything extraordinary to keep these fish. A constructive discussion on how to keep these fish would be great...it's just too bad we don't yet know.

Once upon a time, Green Mandarins used to be difficult to keep, and still are for those who don't take their requirements into consideration. We do now know what the requirements are, and likely we will eventually figure this out with many of the species that are currently difficult to keep.

Putting these "typically difficult to keep" fish in the hands of uneducated, inexperienced, or careless reefkeepers is really sad. When you've been around forums for a long time it gets tiring to read repetitive threads like, "What's wrong with my CBB?".

On the topic of cyanide, it is still used in many countries. CORAL Magazine just published an article highlighting a new Cyanide Test. Previously, the only tests available required sacrifice of the test fish, so this new test is groundbreaking.

Originally Posted by Ret Talbot

Unlike other cyanide detection tests, the new methodology provides for rapid detection of cyanide by testing the water in which the animal is being held. The procedure outlined in the paper utilizes an optical fiber sensor capable of detecting trace levels of Thiocyanate anion in seawater.

Since nearly 80 percent of all cyanide entering an organism is converted to Thiocyanate anion and excreted in urine, this procedure allows for quick, non-invasive screening for cyanide by simply testing the holding water. Because saltwater fishes retain Thiocyanate anion for long periods subsequent to the initial cyanide poisoning, this cyanide detection method can be used successfully throughout the supply chain.

http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/cont...t-game-changer

[daniella3d]

Sure we do. Cleaner wrasse eat bits of fish mucous and any parasites they can find on those fish. There is a hint here, live food. Any small bits that they can eat is good. They can't swallow large food like mysis and they love cyclopeeze (frozen) which is close to their natural food. For both the copperband and the cleaner wrasse, having a live white worm culture is a lifesaver.

There was a girl in my area who could not get her copperband to eat anything and after 3 weeks she finally decided to buy a white worm culture. I shipped it by bus for her. 4 months later her copperband has gained weight and is eating his white worms each day. At the beginning it is often the only food they take after having decimated the feather duster population in the aquarium. After they get used to the white worms, they very often start on other food like mysis and fresh oyster or mussels cut in half. Doing a proper quarantine and getting them to eat is another big step. I did a month quarantine for both my copperband and cleaner wrasse and I was feeding them many times per day.

The cleaner wrasse really need small rich food to survive. cyclopeeze should be given each day and it should be fed at least twice a day. Looking how active this fish is, it is not surprising to think it must eat often. I feed mine live white worms morning and evening as well as cyclop 3 to 4 times per week and he also gets fish roe (caplan eggs) which he loves, each day.

They just need rich food as many times per day as we can. They don't eat a lot but often. Pump should be cut off to give it the best chance to catch the food and less need for spending energy swimming after it. I cut my pumps each time I feed so the cleaner really stay in one spot and swallow everything around, no need to go all over the place as they are not so agile to cath small bits of food going fast in the water.

Originally Posted by Myka

Cleaner Wrasse (and Copperband Butterflies, among many other fish) really are difficult to keep in captivity. Some people do have success even though most appear not to do anything extraordinary to keep these fish. A constructive discussion on how to keep these fish would be great...it's just too bad we don't yet know.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by Myka

I would have to go ahead and agree with Naesco, although sending the message a little more diplomatically would likely result in more positive responses.

<snip>

Putting these "typically difficult to keep" fish in the hands of uneducated, inexperienced, or careless reefkeepers is really sad. When you've been around forums for a long time it gets tiring to read repetitive threads like, "What's wrong with my CBB?".

Unfortunately, with these forums, too many people like to just regurgitate popular or politically correct opinion, rather than provide constructive advice based on direct experience. Certainly CBB's and Cleaner Wrasse require more knowledge, care and attention than a Damsel or Angel. But that doesn't mean no one should ever keep these fish as Naesco advocates, and now Myka with her endorsement of Naesco.

In the case of CBB's, there is plenty of good information available about these fish, and how to set up a proper QT environment that suits the fish's behavior and feeding requirements. Both Daniella and myself (and others) have posted extensively about this.

I know far less about Cleaner Wrasse (but probably more than those that just say don't buy them), but would like to learn more. I would like to see more posts (like Daniella's) about how to do it successfully, and also what not to do. Personally, I am not ready to buy a Cleaner Wrasse (and don't know if I ever will), but I do appreciate hearing from those that have been successful, and those who have not (to try and find out why).

I am sure both Naesco and Myka mean well, but they would have a lot more credibility with me, if they advised caution and knowledge with these fish rather than just say "The chances of a cleaner wrasse surviving more than a week or two are almost nil". That statement is just not true.

Instead, I wish more of our "trusted experts" on this forum would advocate proper QT practices, that are appropriate to the specific fish (and coral). QT is not just about preventing disease, but also about acclimatizing and getting your fish strong and healthy before moving them to the display tank.

For me, it's more "tiring" to read over and over about newbies (and sometimes "experts", too) and how their fish are sick and dying because of ich and velvet (although often mistaken for ich). Saying to just just feed garlic instead of QT, is most irresponsible, IMO. And I am speaking from direct experience here, when I got burned initially by listening to the "experts" and going through the horrible ich in my display tank experience. Since then, I have gone QT (hypo only, no copper) with 100% success rates.

So hopefully, we can see more posts about what to do (and not to do) with keeping Cleaner Wrasse, and other other "difficult to keep" fish. There is no substitute for direct experience when it comes to knowledge.

[tim the toolman]

I was a newbie to salt when I got my cleaner wrasse and now about 2 years later it is still doing great.
That is all.

[jtbadco]

Thank you Reef Pilot,....exactly what I was thinking. Very well said.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

But that doesn't mean no one should ever keep these fish as Naesco advocates, and now Myka with her endorsement of Naesco.

Naesco is definitely rather more extremist than I am. I don't think that "no one should ever keep these fish", you haven't seen me say that exactly. I think newbies shouldn't keep these fish. Just as I think newbies shouldn't keep any other challenging species of fish. Newbies lack the knowledge to recognize problems while the problem is still young enough to reverse or treat. In a perfect world, it would be nice if newbies stuck to captive bred fish (well in a perfect world we would all stick to captive bred fish) where their mistakes would have less impact.

In the case of CBB's, there is plenty of good information available about these fish, and how to set up a proper QT environment that suits the fish's behavior and feeding requirements. Both Daniella and myself (and others) have posted extensively about this.

CBBs and Cleaner Wrasses seem to be a lot like Mandarins where they have specific feeding requirements/habits, but in the case of CBBs I think it is more than that (cyanide maybe?). You read of many people that have had CBBs and Cleaner Wrasse for some time (6 months, a year?) then suddenly they quit eating, get pinched bellies, and die in just a few days. Fish don't die from not eating for a few days. Something else is going on. And no, the experts and scientists don't know yet.

Recently, it has been discovered there is some sort of Bangaii Cardinal virus (or such) that kills off wild caught Bangaii. Most people in the business will confirm often poor survival rates of wild caught Bangaii. Or some batches are good while other perish. They are eating one day, floating the next. One will die here and there until none are left. There is a research group right now that just got together and are working to solve this problem and research the Bangaii in general. They are working on people's donations. Go here to donate: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...rescue-project

My point is, even though people have been keeping and even breeding Bangaii Cardinals for many years there has been this virus that no one knew about mysteriously killing off so many Bangaii Cardinals that the average hobbyist has likely been completely ignorant of. Maybe such things exist with other "difficult to keep" species?

You see, I'm not so quick to support people attempting to keep difficult species simply because their requirements are mostly a mystery right now. I can't support hundreds of people trying in hopes that someone will find the answers. I would rather donate (like I have) to research projects where experts can figure this out, and publish works that we can all learn from.

I know far less about Cleaner Wrasse (but probably more than those that just say don't buy them)

That's just a silly assumption.

I am sure both Naesco and Myka mean well, but they would have a lot more credibility with me, if they advised caution and knowledge with these fish rather than just say "The chances of a cleaner wrasse surviving more than a week or two are almost nil". That statement is just not true.

Instead, I wish more of our "trusted experts" on this forum would advocate proper QT practices, that are appropriate to the specific fish (and coral).

I agree that statement isn't true. I'm not looking for credibility from you, I don't even know you. I haven't been posting much lately, but in the last 6 months I've mentioned the word "quarantine" in 15 different threads. I'm actually working on a quarantine article right now.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80937
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82222
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80410

For me, it's more "tiring" to read over and over about newbies (and sometimes "experts", too) and how their fish are sick and dying because of ich and velvet (although often mistaken for ich). Saying to just just feed garlic instead of QT, is most irresponsible, IMO.

Agreed.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by Myka

I agree that statement isn't true. I'm not looking for credibility from you, I don't even know you. I haven't been posting much lately, but in the last 6 months I've mentioned the word "quarantine" in 15 different threads. I'm actually working on a quarantine article right now.

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80937
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=82222
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=80410

Agreed.

Myka, you're contradicting yourself. Here, you agree with me that Naesco's statement isn't true. But earlier you said "I would have to go ahead and agree with Naesco". Which is it? That's what I mean about credibility. And no, you don't know about me either, that is obvious. But I have to chuckle when I read one of my own posts in the threads you have just referenced here.

I have read a lot of your posts and articles, Myka (hard not to, you are a very prolific writer). But with all due respect, you sound more like a reporter than someone advising based on their own direct experience. I know you are a long time reefer, so don't get me wrong. But I haven't seen a lot of new or unique information coming from you that I haven't seen before on other forums or by googling. I may be wrong (hope I am actually), and feel free to correct me.

By contrast, I have found that Daniella has a tremendous amount of unique and useful experiences, and I have learned to really appreciate and trust her contributions. I have seen pics of her tanks, too, so she definitely knows what she is talking about. I actually had a rocky introduction on this forum with her when she very unkindly admonished me for trying to keep two Copperbands in one tank. But she was right (had to sell one).

Myka, I know you write articles for magazines. Ever thought of profiling someone (like Daniella maybe) that could provide some new and unique insight to reef keeping. Your writing skills and her experience could be a dynamite combination. Just a thought.

Having said all that, you and I probably don't differ much, if any, on our views about QT. I just wish you would better separate yourself from "elitists" like Naesco who puts more merit on 1970's articles than current reefers' direct experiences.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

Myka, you're contradicting yourself. Here, you agree with me that Naesco's statement isn't true. But earlier you said "I would have to go ahead and agree with Naesco". Which is it?

Yeah, see Naesco is an extremist, as is Daniella. They both get a lot of flack for their "elitist" posts. I don't think that either one of them are arrogant, they are simply right to the point. They have a lot of merit in their posts, and I like to stick up for them because I think people can learn a lot from them.

I agree with Naesco that all our fish are better off in the ocean than in our tanks...sorry, I did not read all of his posts before I said I agreed with him. I should have quoted what I agreed with. I have already clarified my thoughts about keeping difficult species.

I have read a lot of your posts and articles, Myka (hard not to, you are a very prolific writer). But with all due respect, you sound more like a reporter than someone advising based on their own direct experience. I know you are a long time reefer, so don't get me wrong. But I haven't seen a lot of new or unique information coming from you that I haven't seen before on other forums or by googling. I may be wrong (hope I am actually), and feel free to correct me.

Thanks for your review (I appreciated these). I will keep in this mind in future writing. It is a style I have adopted as a method to try to keep inappropriate emotion out of my writing and come across neutral (as I've been called an elitist too), but maybe it doesn't read the best? I find forum discussion can often be misinterpreted, so I try to be neutral, but maybe I'm over doing it.

Myka, I know you write articles for magazines. Ever thought of profiling someone (like Daniella maybe) that could provide some new and unique insight to reef keeping. Your writing skills and her experience could be a dynamite combination. Just a thought.

So far, I have only written one article, although I have been asked to write more since. I'm not sure that profiling would be appropriate for what I have been asked to do. On the other hand, I thought you didn't like my writing skills?

Having said all that, you and I probably don't differ much, if any, on our views about QT. I just wish you would better separate yourself from "elitists" like Naesco who puts more merit on 1970's articles than current reefers' direct experiences.

I don't know if you are exaggerating when you say 1970's as I don't usually click any references people post unless something is unusual. However, reefers direct experiences are always very relative, and usually quite opinionated. Most people aren't quick to advertise their failures (although one reefer's exclamation that he tried 7 different CBBs before giving up comes to mind). Call me leery, but I try to take people's experiences with a skeptical eye, and try to weave those ideas into my own experiences.

[Reef Pilot]

Originally Posted by Myka

Thanks for your review (I appreciated these). I will keep in this mind in future writing. It is a style I have adopted as a method to try to keep inappropriate emotion out of my writing and come across neutral (as I've been called an elitist too), but maybe it doesn't read the best? I find forum discussion can often be misinterpreted, so I try to be neutral, but maybe I'm over doing it.

So far, I have only written one article, although I have been asked to write more since. I'm not sure that profiling would be appropriate for what I have been asked to do. On the other hand, I thought you didn't like my writing skills?

Myka, I think your writing skills are good. I just don't know where you stand sometimes. You need to think more about what audience you are addressing. Is it the newbies, avg SW aquarist, or the advanced reef keeper? You label both Naesco and Daniella as "extremists" and "elitists". I see them quite differently.

Naesco seems to be stuck in conventional wisdom. And yes, he indeed linked to a Cleaner Wrasse article that used references from the 70's to the 90's. I don't think he is extreme, just very old school and unwilling to learn anything new. He tries to be elitist, but comes across as being more pompous.

Daniella, on the other hand, I would call an advanced reef keeper. When I suggested to profile her, I meant her techniques, and how she has been successful. She is definitely unconventional. Whether it is white worms, vitamin C, the many chemicals and parasite remedies, difficult fish and coral, or Kent carbon issues, she definitely brings up stuff that I have not read or heard about elsewhere. And she seems to know her stuff, too. But I only see bits and pieces when she chimes in on a thread to help someone. I would bet she has a lot more knowledge and experience to share, and a good writer could make it very interesting and valuable, I'm sure.

I wouldn't call Daniella an elitist either, as she often starts a thread asking about something (often an advanced topic though), so it shows that she is always learning and open minded. The only knock against her, might be that she comes across sometimes as not being very tactful. I initially thought that too, with my early Copperband encounter. But I think she is a lot better at that lately, even with her direct approach.

So, I still say your writing skills profiling Daniella and her reef keeping experiences would make for a very interesting and valuable read.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

Myka, I think your writing skills are good. I just don't know where you stand sometimes. You need to think more about what audience you are addressing. Is it the newbies, avg SW aquarist, or the advanced reef keeper?

I address newbies and average SW aquarists. It depends what you class as an advanced reefkeeper though? I really think advanced reefkeepers take their advice from the experts in the field, many of who have letters after their names. I don't put myself in that class, so I don't try to address advanced reefkeepers. I also think I have to prove myself to the average crowd before I could ever get any recognition with the advanced crowd. Know what I mean?

Naesco seems to be stuck in conventional wisdom. And yes, he indeed linked to a Cleaner Wrasse article that used references from the 70's to the 90's.

There's nothing entirely wrong with that as often there is nothing new in the hobby to reference. Some of the best in the field did their best work in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Take Martin Moe for example, he was breeding fish in the 70s and 80s that most people can't breed today. People are still looking back to his works to try to figure it all out. Although I get your point.

I wouldn't call Daniella an elitist either[...]The only knock against her, might be that she comes across sometimes as not being very tactful.

That's what I mean, Daniella comes across as an elitist, but I don't think she is arrogant at all. She ruffles lots of feathers around here, although I agree with you, she knows a lot of stuff. "Extremist" is really just another way of saying "perfectionist" in the case of Daniella, she puts a lot more effort into her reefkeeping than the average hobbyist.

I just looked up the meaning of elitist, as I thought one of us must have a misunderstanding of the word. "A person considered superior by others or by themselves; as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society." By the dictionary meaning though, you could class both as elitist as you think Daniella is elite, and you think Naesco thinks he is elite. My understanding was simply that I thought elitism was someone who thought they were elite, regardless of their actual knowledge. I actually didn't call either of them elitist, I said they make elitist posts. I enjoy both Daniellas and Naesco's posts.

Hmm...not sure how we got from Cleaner Wrasses to Naesco and Daniella.