Brad!

[Aquattro]

Darren, I don't agree with the heat story. My tank did nothing this year that it didn't do last. I only had one day where my temp was anywhere above normal and it was between my squamosa and first maxima dying.
I believe samples have been sent to a biologist and the results are due shortly. One person treating with antibiotics circumvented a clam's death (so far). I have read about mass numbers of clams dying at wholesalers.
Using Adam as an example, his basement is cool all the time and I'm sure his tank didn't fluctuate a degree.
There are hundreds of these reports on RC and I don't think a poll has been done regarding chillers.
I know that during my move 4 months ago, the heat went from 76 to 86 degrees in my tank in a matter of 10 hours. My clams were fine. So I don't believe my tank going from 81 to 85 in the same time period is going to kill them now.
I don't see anyone blaming any retailer or other supplier for this "epidemic"....if J&L sold me a clam, I know they believe it to be in perfect health. I have complete faith in their practices. Clams, like fish and corals, can have hidden problems we won't see until we get them in our tanks. The only ones to blame are ourselves for propagating the removal of ornamental organisms from the ocean.

I have been following the clam "problem" closely, as I'm sure you have, and I haven't seen any one blame a store for causing this.
This stuff happens and we're unhappy when it does. But that is an unfortunate part of the hobby we participate in....things DO die. We try our best to prevent it, but they can and do die.
If it's proven to be heat, I retract almost all of the above, but until something concrete is attributed with these deaths, I'm calling it a mystery.

~The End~

[canadawest]

Well I just lost my T. Maxima overnight, so I am also part of this tragedy. :(

Not sure what the cause is, but I tend to agree with Brad. Sure I've had regular temp fluctuations the past couple weeks, usually 3-4 degrees in a day. But I find it highly suspicious that this all happend a month after I added a new Derasa.

Last year we had an even worse heat wave. I had no hood fans, and experienced temp swings of 4-5 degrees each day over the entire week. I was floating frozen 2L bottles and reducing my photoperiod to try to compensate. I even lost two fish due to the stress. And what of my little T. Maxima, it never showed any signs of stress. Here we are a year later with the same temperature circumstances. Why the death this year, and not last year?

I can agree that temperature was probably an aggrivating factor, but I think it's just too convenient that people are experiencing losses after introducing a new clam (or even just corals now I am reading)

Who knows the answer? But I do know that there will be no new clams for me now for several months, especially now as I watch the remaining little Derasa and see if it is affected.

[DJ88]

Brad,

I highly doubt it is some mystery illness.

I am not saying it was one spike of two degrees.. constant repetative raising and lowering of temperature is what will stress a clam. I know that even on a cool day when I had my 250W come on over my tank the temp went up In the winter, spring, summer and fall it is the same thing. No way around it short of a chiller to keep the tank temp at bang on 79 or whatever you chose. Everyone has it. Maybe those clams that came via J&L had experienced a large heat spike PRIOR to arriving at J&L and all it took was the moving into a new tank and then another into yours that was the last straw?

If it is a bug why has the distributors(ie growers/pickers) not lost huge numbers as well?

The only commonality that is in this whole thing is the hobbiests tanks. Small tanks with wider temperature swings. The farmers don't run small gallon systems with large MH lights blasting heat out. They run huge systems that take a lot more energy to heat up. And thus temperature wise, much more stable. I'll bet most are running natural lighting or pendant systems which do not introduce heat into the water as we get in a sealed hood.

One person treating with antibiotics circumvented a clam's death (so far)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To me someone saying he saved his clam by putting it in a Qtank with an antibiotic is not proof he saved it. It is someone who has many different factors in one large equation who is assuming that the anibiottics did it. Does he know with 100% certainty? There are too many factors in all of this. Can he prove with 100% certainty that it was the antiboitics that saved it? Could it have been cleaner water? More stable water? Dirtier water? lower lighting? higher lighting? food? lack of food? Better angle for the moons gravitaional pull? LOL! He doesn't know what saved that clam anymore than I do or even you do. All you see are words on a screen that someone else typed from him observing something else without any quantitative data or studies done. Did he send off all of his fatalities to be autopsied? I didn't. They are in a dump somewhere now. Maybe the antibiotic did do something. He doesn't know that it killed off some disease of pathogen. All he knows is his clam got better. A hobbiest saying that drug X saved his clam is like me saying because I pay a bear patrol tax I haven't been attacked by a bear in my third floor apartment in the middle of Coquiitlam. lol

See my point? There is no scientific basis for his claims that the anit-biotic saved his clam. He didn't test the tissure prior to or even after. There were no long term studies or testing done. He plopped the clam into another tank and a half day later said his clam was saved. lol

I still ask and will keep asking. Why have none of the major distributors lost clams in the numbers we are? Don't you think LFS's would hear about a major die off? Do you honestly believe if they knew they would even buy a single clam from the distributor? I find J&L to be a very honest store. They aren't going to buy clams from a supplier that they knew had lost a large percentage of stock and chance having all they had bought die in the store. That isn't sound business.

I didn't do anything different either but I lost two clams I have had for over a year. Made it through a move across to Vancouver and everything. This wasn't one heat spike but a number of parts to one large equation.

Maybe that one clam that died released enough of something from inside it to get your clams that were fine that little bit weaker and more succeptible to the heat swings. If that is the case then when that one clam was moved and treated in a sepatarte tank all that saved that clam was clean water.

There are too many clams, in too many tanks, over too wide a distance to test and know for sure that there was a mysterious disease. Unless every clam that has died is tested we can't say a disease caused this. I am going with temp myself as I don't buy into the dreaded clam disease... lol I asked John if all of that batch of clams he got in died. He called the other owners and found one predominant response. No. My clam is fine. It is the small number of reefers who visit a couple of boards online that are screaming clam disease. Why think it is your own fault if you cna come up with some fantastic clam disease sent to you by the wholesalers.. lol.

This is going to fade away till the next time a bunch die with the owner not having all the facts and jumping at a conclusiong as to what is causing it. Then it will get dragged up again and panic will set in with people screaming "IT'S BACK!" lol

The clam virus story is just fantastic enough to get peoples natural suspicions and paranoias going. Heck he could have put lemon juice in his tank and had the same results. Or else prepping it for dinner. ;)

lol

[img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 27 July 2002, 15:07: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

[One_Divided]

I agree with brad that it seems suspicious that if it was heat, why wasn't it happening last year?

I can't take the time to read all of the ramblings, but I have read the main points. Sorry if I have missed anything important.

Yes, my tank temp has been higher lately.. goes up as much as 84 at the hottest point of the day and then drops to 80 at night.. I have seen no changes in any other behaviour in the tank. Would I be safer bumping up my thermometer so there is less of a swing when lights go out?

I do see that temp could have been the cuase with some of these deaths but something else seems to be happening here too.. gotta run..

[SuperFudge]

Sorry to hear guys about your losses,

Heat had no bearing on the death of my clams,nor could i say that it was a viral problem.
Altho i have temps exceeding 86 on a few occasions this summer it was no where near times of death.
Deaths were also spread atleast by 2 months apart.
i still have one maxima,and it has grown noticeably during all these heat waves and other neighboring clam deaths.

Sounds silly,but i think other than say one unhealthy shipment from a large clam supplier to our stores.....id say its just a nasty coincidence.

I couldnt say it was a contaminated salt shipment either....but id be interested in knowing what you guys are using for a salt brand that have also lost their clams,I/O?

Marc.

[EmilyB]

My clam appears to be fine. I think I just panicked. My temp has never gone over 84 and I keep the heaters at 80. Being a 155g tank, I don't think the fluctuations are rapid enough to be a problem for me. I will buy a chiller for my house next year however. :D

I find the salt question interesting, as it could be entirely something else all these people have in common.

[DJ88]

I am gonna throw this out there for everyone to chew on. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ok.. something has happened to a number of clams.

now.. IF and I stress IF it was some kind of a disease/virus, what have you, it would be something that could possibly have a massive effect on the actual wild stocks of clams.. Right? Imagine if this got out in nature and was a killer. Wiped out.. With the death tolls we are seeing in just the small percentage of people that post on the boards we frequent that would be horrible in nature.

We all know that there is pretty much a Dr. in marine Biology out there for everything you see in the ocean. Especially the pretty things that catch our eye like clams, corals, fish etc.

Now those Dr's, that we know are out there are, going to immediately look into something possibly destroying the thing they love and work for. Right? Well I am betting they have already done so. You know that every major supplier of Clam's has contacts in the research end of the world. When I say suppliers I am talking about on the actual islands. The guys who grow them or pick them. I'd bet even some major stores and wholesalers have contacts that they can check in with.

Don't you think that something that could possibly wipe out a major source of food for millions would grab immediate attention? And secondly have an effect on small percentage of hobbyists like us? This "disease" could theoretically do a lot of damage.

I am betting that as soon as the word virus or disease popped up phones started ringing in many a research office. Clams were sent. Clams were tested.

Now if there was something it would make news in the hobby before the TV shows could get it out.

I'll bet there are many a Dr out there that is laughing his or her collective a$$ off at a bunch of hobbyists making a diagnosis with NOT a single one of them having the qualifications or experience to make it. Remember.. we are hobbyists.. We keep pretty things in a miniature copy of what we think nature is. We don't do that good a job at imitating nature in reality. We try but it's not nature. If these Dr's are out there, I would not be surprised if NONE of them posted a word on any board. Remember when Dr Bingman used to post? Where is he now? He had rank amateurs with none of the education or training he has telling him he was wrong when he would say something. So he doesn't post. Do you think someone is going to get into what will certainly become a ****ing match? Someone who has been on the board longer than some Dr joining in with today's date will feel he knows more and tell him so. It always happens.

Your clams died. Clams died last summer. Clams will die next summer. They died before we had our little episode and will most certainly die in the years to come. Are you going to know what killed them? no. It is as easy or as hard as that.

It could be salt, it could be reactor media, food, soap on your hands, smog in the air, your breath after too many onions, cigarettes.. who knows.. we aren't going to know what killed OUR clams. Jumping on a bandwagon screaming disease, virus! Is going no where.

We are hobbyists. Plain and simple. In the grand scheme of things we sit very low on the totem pole of knowledge about our tanks and systems. We muddle through it. Looking to the ones higher up to throw us scraps of knowledge from the table. Only people who aren't in the hobby are lower. I say get used to it. It isn't going to be the first time something dies in your tank. It won't be the last. I guarantee it. Fish, coral, clam whatever. All we can do is the best we can to ensure the optimal environment in our tank.. I will be doing even more in the future. We all know clams are sensitive to changes in our tanks. Read D Knops clams book. He says it there and in sources online. I saw one reply where a guy had asked why his clam died after a water change. Funny thing was it was showing the same symptoms as ours did. Mucus, spewing sperm, gaping, slow reaction to touch or change in light. I have read other articles where they say not to let your tank exceed 82 degrees with clams. I know mine did in this heat wave..

Did yours?????

Nite all..

[StirCrazy]

hey Darren, I am not a expert on clams but your 2 degree heat spike doesent sit well with me.. I have seen on the island here that water temps can change by 20 degrees with the tide, whare we go camping the water is at about 78 degrees for about 2 hours after the tide comes in. now I can't say that the temps DIDN'T kill your clams but I think it is highly unlikely. my reasoning for this is that there are reports all over the US of clams dieing (and of distrubters losing up to 200 in one shot) also if you ask LFS on the island here 3 different ones have said there is a bacterial in the clams right now and no one will bring them in..

also there has been proof of this sickness

"This problem is caused by a bacterial infection. Two years ago it was isolated by a lab in Florida to by a bacterial in Vibrio strain (gram-negative). Vibrio bacteria cause a number of human ailments including cholera and acute bacterial diarrhea. More specific pathology for the exact bacteria causing harm to our clams will be available for the San Francisco area outbreak later this week as some dying clams have been sent into a pathology lab specializing in marine organisms. This bacterial problem in ornamental reef clams is not new. It (or something very similar) happened about two years ago too.

As it turns out, Sprung and Delbeck are recommended the tetracycline family of antibiotics for this problem. I just happened to have something on hand, so after I lost 2 of my 3 clams to this problem, I tried an antibiotic from the tetracycline family called minocycline. My last clam, which just yesterday was showing gaping and the classic mucus, seems fine today living in a bath of antibiotics. Treatment was given at 100 mg minocycline per 5 gallons (I read this is close to the common dosage for fish). After 24-48 hours, the water should be replaced in the bucket and treated again at the same dosage for two more days. After that the clam should be returned to a tank separate from the one it caught the disease. In several months, the clam might be able to be returned to the main tank, but the amount of time to wait is anyone's best guess. I AM BASING THIS ROUTINE ON WHAT I'VE READ ONLY! It is NOT proven yet to me personally!

Of the tetracyclines, Delbeck recommends doxycycline in particular probably because of its relatively low affinity to calcium (good in a high-calcium organism). Where does one get that stuff without holding your local doctor hostage? The answer was found about as far from my mind as possible as I set out on the search.

The answer is in racing pigeon care. Racing pigeons are sometimes given a doxycycline solution to prevent respiratory infection after coming home from a race. The concentration of such a solution is, I have read, 500 to 1000 mg/gallon of water. This is 20 to 40 times the strength recommended by fish experts in treating fish bacterial infections. That might be expected too as saltwater organisms are constantly processing water since they have to counter the osmotic pressure that forces them to dehydrate all the time.

I found a place in Savannah, Georgia called Global Pigeon Supplies that sells enough to treat 400 to 800 gallons of saltwater (depending on what concentration they are using for the pigeons) for $22.95 + $7 shipping. Since I ordered today and had it sent to my work, I'll probably get it on Wednesday. "

I don't have a clam so you might say why do I care about this.. the answer is because I want a clam :D this same thing happend 2 years ago

Also we have both Steve Tyree and Charles Delbeek calling it a bacterial infection.. I just don't see why you won't beleive it..

after all is sed and done it is not the fault of the LFS and shouldent bear on there reputation(if that is what you are trying to protect) but rather the fault of a importer, who people are scared to name due to law suits, that brought a shipment in from Ponape..

now I don't want to start a Pi$$ing match but I don't see how you can go with your heat theory with all the evadence.. but I will put forth something for you to chew on.. do you know of anyone who has lost clams that haven't 1, putchased a clam laitly or 2, purchased something from a clam tank and maby got a bit of the water in there tank ( as this bacteria can be transported by water).

Steve

Then again I might not have any clue what I am talking about either :D : D

[ 27 July 2002, 21:20: Message edited by: StirCrazy ]

[reefburnaby]

Hi,

I don't understand what the big fuss is about antibiotics. If you know your clam is in trouble, and you know that it will probably die (more than 50/50 chance), then why not take a chance. Sure, we don't quite understand what this stuff is, but we can at least try. Has anybody even tried it yet ?

And the heat theory...probably not. Tanks, on a daily basis, can move up and down 3 degrees F. Besides, this is not the only time we have had heat spurts ... we have these kinds of things every year. Heat moving up and down can stress a clam (probably), but it probably isn't the cause of the death.

- Victor.

[Aquattro]

After reading the responses of people with a lot more clam experience than me, several of which are clam distributors, most of whom have had some of their clams for many summers (and heat waves), stating that they "feel" it is a bacterial problem with some particular shipment of clams makes me follow that line of thought. According to some, personal communications with Daniel Knop meet with agreement. Now I don't know if Mr. Knop is a doctor of anything, but his opinion counts to me.
I'm not a doctor either and really know nothing about mollusc physiology, and barely know a maxima from a crocea. But this excuse of "The dreaded heat wave" isn't convincing me of anything. It cannot be proven anymore than the bacterial story. I believe all the people complaining about clam deaths had recently aquired a new clam. Those who did not get a new clam still have their existing clams. I guess they all have chillers? I think not.
Personally I don't care if anyone here thinks aliens killed their clams. I bought a new one, my others dies as a result. To be cautious, I will NOT buy any more clams this year. If someone does replace their dead clams and is successful, please let everyone know.
This thread isn't going to end with any type of agreement: I have my opinion, based on what I've read, others have their opinions based on whatever they base opinions on. If they get a new clam, I wish them the best of luck, really, I do.

P.S. Darren, just so you know, people stopped paying bear patrol tax years ago. ;)