Copperbands Valentine's Day Lovefest - Not

[Reef Pilot]

Whoa, everybody please chill down. First, I will admit, I may have made a mistake buying two. But let me explain my reasoning, and give some background. And yes, I did a lot of research, so this was not an impulse buy.

I have a 6 foot 100 g display tank that is very mature, going for 10 years or so. We just moved into this house 7 months ago, so it was all inherited. The display is doing well with the fish and corals, but is full of aiptasia, so that is why I wanted a Copperband.

I tried a single Copperband back last Aug. Didn't have a QT tank ready, so put him in with the other fish. Problem was I have a bully yellow tang that would harass him, and kept him to one corner of the tank. Despite that, he would eat stuff in the live rocks, and picked away at small aiptaisia. However, I could not get him to eat any of frozen and other foods that the rest of my fish ate. Even tried chopped up live clams, and would put them into a little container with holes in it for him to pick out. But soon the other fish figured that out, and again, he could not compete with them.

So after 2 months, he was getting very skinny indeed, and I returned him to the pet shop. At least he never did get sick, and if I had a QT tank, I think I could have saved him.

Since then, I have successfully introduced several other fish into the main display tank with no losses. But each time this yellow tank harassed them for a few days, so I know that will be the challenge with the Copperband(s).

Now I finally have a good QT tank set up (doubles as a Refugium when no new fish), seeded with aiptasia, and wanted to try the Copperband route again. My thinking with 2 is that is the yellow tang's attention would be divided. This actually worked with my other fish that I introduced successfully. Also, I found that when in QT, fish teach each other to feed (monkey see, monkey do).

Anyway, at the pet shop they had 4 Copperbands. 2 were in the open seemingly happy, doing what Copperbands do, looking for food on the bottom, and didn't show any aggression towards each other. The other 2 were cowering behind a pipe in the corner. So I bought the 2 that seemed like they were getting along and were looking for food.

When home in the QT, unfortunately, one did bully the other, so I separated them with the divider. But the monkey do, see thing, still worked, and it took me only a couple days to get them both eating Mysis shrimp. Then I would give them a chopped up live clam, and again they seemed to take cues from each other about going after food. Now I also have them eating freeze dried Mysis shrimp. I also have an Azure Damselfish in there with them to get any uneaten scraps. He is very peaceful, so no problem there, and I think he too, is teaching them to eat.

My plan is to fatten them up and eating a variety of foods before putting them into the display tank. But I am not sure if I will put them both in. If the aggression continues, may have to sell or return one of the Copperbands. But for now, want to fatten them up first in the Refugium. Good news is that they are definitely eating well, and no sign of any disease.

Like I said initially, they seemed to get along fine the first 3 weeks, and only yesterday bickered at each other through the divider. I think it may actually be a sign of vigor, as they are slowly gaining back their strength from their ordeals in the supply chain.

But will keep a close eye on them, and will see what happens.

Reef Pilot

[daniella3d]

Well that's great...between the yellow tang harrassing them and them harrassing each other..they should have a long and happy life.

The sensible thing to do would be to remove the yellow tang and let one copperband (the one that eat the best and is the fattest) get acclimated for a month in the display, sell the other copperband (100 gallons is way too small to keep 2 copperband) and then introduce the yellow tang once the copperband is acclimated.

The one on the left is not going to live much longer from what I can see. it's quite thin and stressed.

Also if you give them mysis, it is best to give them PE mysis as they are much more rich in fatty acid than the regular mysis.

A copperband goes through a colony of aiptasia in no time, no need for 2.

You already tried one and failed, then you're going through the same mistakes again as the yellow tang will definitly harrass both of them. I don't think they are "eating well" either because mine got to a skinny bony thing to a very beautiful fat and healthy fish in 10 only days...yours are skinny still after 3 weeks, especialy the one on the left. You may think they eat well but they don't. After 3 weeks of eating well they should have gained their fat pad back. Sorry if I sound harsh but the copperband is my favorite fish as they have such sweet personality and it sadden me to see this.

It also sound as if your quarantine tank is connected to your main tank? if that is so, then it's useless since any disease will quickly spread to the main tank. I surely hope I got that part wrong.

It is very misleading to see a bunch of copperband fish together at the store and they seem to get along great. They have no territory to defend or associate with as most of these tanks are empty of anything. It's the same with discus. Put a bunch of discus in an empty tank with nothing in it and they will get along great...then put a piece of driftwood and they will start to fight for the possesion of this wood.

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

I have a 6 foot 100 g display tank that is very mature, going for 10 years or so. We just moved into this house 7 months ago, so it was all inherited. The display is doing well with the fish and corals, but is full of aiptasia, so that is why I wanted a Copperband.

I tried a single Copperband back last Aug. Didn't have a QT tank ready, so put him in with the other fish. Problem was I have a bully yellow tang that would harass him, and kept him to one corner of the tank. Despite that, he would eat stuff in the live rocks, and picked away at small aiptaisia. However, I could not get him to eat any of frozen and other foods that the rest of my fish ate. Even tried chopped up live clams, and would put them into a little container with holes in it for him to pick out. But soon the other fish figured that out, and again, he could not compete with them.

So after 2 months, he was getting very skinny indeed, and I returned him to the pet shop. At least he never did get sick, and if I had a QT tank, I think I could have saved him.

Reef Pilot

[Reef Pilot]

Daniella, you are very quick to come to conclusions. You don't know anything about me. I do appreciate your concern, though, and I also like Copperbands, not just because they eat aiptasia. But you could be more helpful, if you offered some support instead of just criticism. If I took your posts to heart, I should quit this hobby and accept that I am not worthy of keeping SW fish.

As for my experience, I am new to SW fish, but was big in the FW hobby quite a few years back. I actually was successful at breeding discus, so I know a bit about finicky fish behavior. Having said that, I know SW is much more difficult and I have a lot to learn. The good news is that there is much more info available now with the internet, and forums like this.

Getting back to my Copperbands and the display tank. My approach is different this time than last, so don't think I am repeating the same mistake. I admit this may not work out either, but wanted to try it and see what happens. I learned a long time ago, that a little experimentation leads to new learning, so I don't always accept what all the "experts" say. As I said, I have the option of only keeping 1 Copperband, and am keeping the fish separated, so they can't harm each other.

As for the Yellow Tang, from past experience, he only harasses new fish for a few days, and then leaves them alone. He still occasionally gives a little tail slap towards other fish, just to show he is the boss, but does not chase them. I have tried to catch him in the past, but that is impossible with a net. If he (and the other fish, too) see me coming with a net, he hides in the back and in the rocks and caves. Even when feeding, he will disappear if I have a net in my hand.

Having said that, my intention is to try and catch the Yellow Tang, and put him into the QT tank, when moving the Copperband(s) to the display tank. I am looking for a fish trap right now, and will give that a try when the time comes.

As for fat Copperbands, certainly not yet; I have only had them 3 weeks, but already am seeing their bellies and sides filled out more, so they are definitely gaining. I feed little bits of food about 4 or 5 times a day. I am also being very careful not to pollute the tank, so am monitoring all my water parameters daily.

My first priority was to get them eating, and am very happy to see them accept different foods now, too. I started them on frozen PE Mysis, and agree that is the best. But the freeze dried stuff is also high in protein and has added vitamins, so am hopeful that will be good for them, too. And it all gets eaten, nothing falls into hidden crevices to pollute the tank.

Reef Pilot

[daniella3d]

Well, I am only drawing conclusions from what you write.

I already offered you advise how to feed your copperband(s) and what you should do for introducing it safely. Not much else I can do.

I consider "experimenting" fine, but keep in mind who's going to pay the price for your experimentation. Often people don't realize that fish are dying from these experimentations and most of the time it could have been avoided with simple research.

I am not against experimenting as long as this does not cost the life of a poor creatre with something that was all way too predictible. This, I consider, was quite predictible.

Often people buy these fish so that they will solve their aiptasia problem, without really caring what happen to the fish once it run out of aiptasia to eat. I read it over and over again.

I am not saying you should leave the hobby and pack your things...that's not what I was suggesting.

For now you are NOT keeping the fish separated. You are keeping them in a very very stressfull situation where they can see each other and attack each other through a egg crate. Haven't you see how hard and fast your copperband is breathing?? This is called stress. This is what actualy makes me hangry. How long do you intend to keep this going??

You really need to put an end to this situation by returning one of the fish or really separating them so they can't see each other and keep fighting all day. Not only they still can harm each other but they can harm themselves trying to bite through the egg crate and obviously they are living in extreme stress. What makes me hangry is that you seem to not realize this.

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

Daniella, you are very quick to come to conclusions. You don't know anything about me. I do appreciate your concern, though, and I also like Copperbands, not just because they eat aiptasia. But you could be more helpful, if you offered some support instead of just criticism. If I took your posts to heart, I should quit this hobby and accept that I am not worthy of keeping SW fish.

As for my experience, I am new to SW fish, but was big in the FW hobby quite a few years back. I actually was successful at breeding discus, so I know a bit about finicky fish behavior. Having said that, I know SW is much more difficult and I have a lot to learn. The good news is that there is much more info available now with the internet, and forums like this.

Getting back to my Copperbands and the display tank. My approach is different this time than last, so don't think I am repeating the same mistake. I admit this may not work out either, but wanted to try it and see what happens. I learned a long time ago, that a little experimentation leads to new learning, so I don't always accept what all the "experts" say. As I said, I have the option of only keeping 1 Copperband, and am keeping the fish separated, so they can't harm each other.

As for the Yellow Tang, from past experience, he only harasses new fish for a few days, and then leaves them alone. He still occasionally gives a little tail slap towards other fish, just to show he is the boss, but does not chase them. I have tried to catch him in the past, but that is impossible with a net. If he (and the other fish, too) see me coming with a net, he hides in the back and in the rocks and caves. Even when feeding, he will disappear if I have a net in my hand.

Having said that, my intention is to try and catch the Yellow Tang, and put him into the QT tank, when moving the Copperband(s) to the display tank. I am looking for a fish trap right now, and will give that a try when the time comes.

As for fat Copperbands, certainly not yet; I have only had them 3 weeks, but already am seeing their bellies and sides filled out more, so they are definitely gaining. I feed little bits of food about 4 or 5 times a day. I am also being very careful not to pollute the tank, so am monitoring all my water parameters daily.

My first priority was to get them eating, and am very happy to see them accept different foods now, too. I started them on frozen PE Mysis, and agree that is the best. But the freeze dried stuff is also high in protein and has added vitamins, so am hopeful that will be good for them, too. And it all gets eaten, nothing falls into hidden crevices to pollute the tank.

Reef Pilot

[Reef Pilot]

Thanks Reefwars and Turtleton for your encouraging words. Glad to see that everyone on this list does not have a holier than thou attitude.

I read a lot (and talked to people at the fish shops) about Copperbands and so totally understood the challenge before I got these ones. I knew the first priority had to be getting them to eat, as that is what most people had difficulty with. And I am happy to say that seems to be very successful so far.

But it didn't just happen. I actually believe having the 2 Copperbands and the Azure Damselfish helped. Fish seem to need to be stimulated to feed. And when they see another one eating, that seems to get them going. The smaller fish (on the left side of the divider) was definitely slower to start eating and converting to new foods. But now I have both them eating frozen Mysis, chopped fresh clams and just the last few days freeze dried Mysis enriched with vitamins. That was not easy, and I had to use a few tricks from my old FW days for tricking finicky fish into eating new foods.

Reef Pilot

[Reef Pilot]

And Daniella, I am very sorry for making you "hangry". That was not at all my intention.

And you should be happy to learn that today, they seem to be getting along much better now. The smaller one (on the left side) still seems to try to start something occasionally, by taking a poke or lunge towards the other one. But the bigger one is now mostly ignoring him (or her), and most of the time they are each just doing their thing poking around the bottom looking for bits.

I think what happened is that the smaller one finally got enough health and vigor to defend his "territory". At first the bigger one reacted, but now seems to just ignore him.

Although what is still interesting, is that sometimes they just sit calmly close to each other by the divider (no heavy rapid breathing) for a while, almost like they are enjoying each others' company. That may be wishful thinking on my part, so not sure what that is all about.

They both do get very excited when I come around, looking for their food. So I really don't think they are very stressed, quite the contrary actually.

Reef Pilot

[ensquire]

Careful who you make "hangry". Looks like there are now copperband police.

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by Reef Pilot

Whoa, everybody please chill down. First, I will admit, I may have made a mistake buying two. But let me explain my reasoning, and give some background. And yes, I did a lot of research, so this was not an impulse buy.

I have a 6 foot 100 g display tank that is very mature, going for 10 years or so. We just moved into this house 7 months ago, so it was all inherited. The display is doing well with the fish and corals, but is full of aiptasia, so that is why I wanted a Copperband.

I tried a single Copperband back last Aug. Didn't have a QT tank ready, so put him in with the other fish. Problem was I have a bully yellow tang that would harass him, and kept him to one corner of the tank. Despite that, he would eat stuff in the live rocks, and picked away at small aiptaisia. However, I could not get him to eat any of frozen and other foods that the rest of my fish ate. Even tried chopped up live clams, and would put them into a little container with holes in it for him to pick out. But soon the other fish figured that out, and again, he could not compete with them.

So after 2 months, he was getting very skinny indeed, and I returned him to the pet shop. At least he never did get sick, and if I had a QT tank, I think I could have saved him.

Since then, I have successfully introduced several other fish into the main display tank with no losses. But each time this yellow tank harassed them for a few days, so I know that will be the challenge with the Copperband(s).

Now I finally have a good QT tank set up (doubles as a Refugium when no new fish), seeded with aiptasia, and wanted to try the Copperband route again. My thinking with 2 is that is the yellow tang's attention would be divided. This actually worked with my other fish that I introduced successfully. Also, I found that when in QT, fish teach each other to feed (monkey see, monkey do).

Anyway, at the pet shop they had 4 Copperbands. 2 were in the open seemingly happy, doing what Copperbands do, looking for food on the bottom, and didn't show any aggression towards each other. The other 2 were cowering behind a pipe in the corner. So I bought the 2 that seemed like they were getting along and were looking for food.

When home in the QT, unfortunately, one did bully the other, so I separated them with the divider. But the monkey do, see thing, still worked, and it took me only a couple days to get them both eating Mysis shrimp. Then I would give them a chopped up live clam, and again they seemed to take cues from each other about going after food. Now I also have them eating freeze dried Mysis shrimp. I also have an Azure Damselfish in there with them to get any uneaten scraps. He is very peaceful, so no problem there, and I think he too, is teaching them to eat.

My plan is to fatten them up and eating a variety of foods before putting them into the display tank. But I am not sure if I will put them both in. If the aggression continues, may have to sell or return one of the Copperbands. But for now, want to fatten them up first in the Refugium. Good news is that they are definitely eating well, and no sign of any disease.

Like I said initially, they seemed to get along fine the first 3 weeks, and only yesterday bickered at each other through the divider. I think it may actually be a sign of vigor, as they are slowly gaining back their strength from their ordeals in the supply chain.

But will keep a close eye on them, and will see what happens.

Reef Pilot

good luck who knows maybe youll end up with a perfectly healthy pair and change what we know about copperbands......you may also not.....either way good luck

sometimes people on here just like to bash for sake of speaking or so called high morals.....if youve gotten both to eat then kudos to you if they end up fighting then remove one right away and lesson learned cheers

[turkleton]

It's good to see that you have gotten them both to eat, especially if they are starting to show an improvement over how they looked in the store. I agree that the only way we are going to learn more about stuff like this is through experimentation and trial and error. Regardless of weather or not this works out in the long run I wish you the best of luck. If nothing else this will serve as a valuable learning experience for you and everyone else.