Vertex Illumina

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

without optics on the LEDs, the spread of light is significantly more uniform.

Sorry, have to disagree with that statement. With all the LEDs down the center output will be less uniform. You will have higher PAR directly below the LEDs and it will drop off front to back. Just because the primary optics have 120 degree spread does not actually mean that the output from an emitter is the same across the whole 120 degrees. There is a drop off in output off center from the emitter.

[Wanderer]

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...t=66180&page=4



Below is the non scientific Vertex Illumina SR 1200-200 PAR measurement taken with a Apogee Quantum Meter. My tank is 18" tall and the fixture is 6" above the surface.


White 100% - Blue 100% - Royal Blue 100%

759 about 5mm below the surface

484 On left frag rack

392 At top right coral colony

242 Center of Red Monti

227 Center of Clam

185 Front Elegance Coral

214 Bottom right middel of tank

148 Bottom rear of tank

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...t=66180&page=4



Below is the non scientific Vertex Illumina SR 1200-200 PAR measurement taken with a Apogee Quantum Meter. My tank is 18" tall and the fixture is 6" above the surface.


White 100% - Blue 100% - Royal Blue 100%

759 about 5mm below the surface

484 On left frag rack

392 At top right coral colony

242 Center of Red Monti

227 Center of Clam

185 Front Elegance Coral

214 Bottom right middel of tank

148 Bottom rear of tank

Yes, saw this and as I mentioned in that thread I'm not overly impressed. Sorry. I achieve higher PAR numbers, especially deeper down into the tank using 60% fewer LEDS and therefore lower power consumption as well. My lighting is also far more even where I would have about the same PAR in the bottom middle of my tank as I will in the bottom front or back. He has 30% less PAR at the front of the tank then he does at the middle.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

You are entitled to your opinion, I disagree with yours... thats usually the way these things work

I'm a fan of the Illumina's other benefits like Easy expandability, control elements, smart design. Given the modularity of the LED pads, who says you won't be able to add optics if thats what you believe in?

It's just nice to see a smart design with an eye on the future.

as far as the price ... you don't get a Mercedes for the same price as a Kia

It's not an opinion, it's science. Here's a nice post on reefbuilders explaining it:

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/27/l...ics-explained/

I'll quote the important bit of it:

"But just because an LED is rated at 120 degrees, it doesn’t mean you get the lighting punch of the LED across the entire spectrum. Just like any other point of light source, it’s going to be stronger the closer you travel to the center. Along the central axis the LED emits 100 percent of its relative luminous intensity and will lose intensity the farther you move away from the central axis.

For simplicity’s sake, if a 100 lumen will produce 100 lumens of light at the center and a measurement taken 25 degrees from its central axis, the output of the LED will appear to drop to only 80 lumens. Continuing on the path away from the center axis a measurement taken 45 degrees off axis will yield only 40 lumens, and so on, until at 60 degrees, only 10 lumens or so are emitted."

Also, to add secondary optics they would have to completely redesign the fixture as the emitters would have to be spread out over the entire face of the fixture rather then clustered or you just compound the problem and you would have even higher intensity down the middle and even more drop off front to back. Simply adding secondary optics to this design is not the solution, it would compound the problem. I guess I just don't see it as a "smart" design. It could have used fewer LEDs, reducing the cost, being more energy efficient and likely had higher performance to boot.

It also has nothing to do with Mercedes vs. Kia. I am sure it is a well built unit and it does have some nice features but performance wise I can't justify the price. Would you buy a Mercedes that drove and performed no better then a Kia? I know I wouldn't. I would want a better feel, better acceleration, handling, ride, reliability, build quality etc. to justify the price premium.

Originally Posted by Skimmer King

Well Ron i love yoru light and would like to get the break down on where to get the stuff i would love to make one of these lights too for my 60" tank or will a 48" light work?
on a 60" tank
48" work?
How many LED's
what type pf optic's
Color how many blues
how many whites
what type of transformer?
what wire.

Don't want to hijack this thread away from the discussion of the Illumina fixture. Many of those details are in my build thread so check it out there. or PM me or start a new thread and we can discuss it there.

[Wanderer]

Ron, we get it. You hate the light. Your light is God’s gift to the aquarium world. Hurry and release it already

[Ron99]

Ahh, a well reasoned and argued response. Great to see

I was planning a product but given time constraints right now the project is on hold for the moment.

In any case, I don't hate the fixture, I just question the cost vs. performance equation. The whole point of these forums and this type of thread is to discuss the pros and cons of the equipment. The OP asked for feeback or opinions and I gave mine. In any case, I've put in my 2 cents backed by my own experience and research. If you've built and tested LED arrays or tested the Vertex fixture yourself then I'll be happy to accept your results too. I will also happily test a Vertex fixture in a more controlled fashion if somebody has one handy. In any case, I'll stop it here for now.

[Wanderer]

#44
08-31-2010, 05:58 PM
TheDogFather
Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ajax, Ontario
Posts: 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron99
Any updates or more then and now photos? Personally, I'm not super impressed with the PAR readings you showed so far. For optimal growth of SPS you want between 400 and 500 PAR. My DIY LED array achieves that in the middle level of the tank (10 inches down my 20 inch deep 75 gallon) at less then full power with the array 6 inches above the water. If I turn it all the way up and lower to 3 to 4 inches above the water I get way more. I get well over 250 PAr at the sand bed 18 or 19 inches below the water surface.

Your clam may do alright but as I understand it clams need 250 to 300 PAR (I may be wrong on that but it's the number I recall).




That's nice Ron99 but this is not a contest and what makes you think you need between 400-500 PAR to grow stony corals well? My SPS and clams say otherwise.

I'm not going to get into a PAR contest with your DIY fixture, I get excellent growth (at 50% power I might add) and my clams are growing very well. The 48" Vertex Illumina LED comes very close in PAR output to my previous fixture, ATI PowerModule with 8x54W T5's and that fixture is no slouch.

I'm guessing your DIY uses optics to achieve higher PAR values but at the cost of spread so you'll have to hang it high to get decent coverage thereby negating all that extra PAR...

-TDF

"Stoney corals appear to photosaturate between 400 and 500 PAR so having 700 or 1000 PAR is probably pointless other than for bragging rights. I doubt it will do the corals much good." -Ron99




could not have said it better myself

[Ron99]

What are you trying to get at? You conveniently do not post my well reasoned and informed response to the above post you quoted. Looks like you are trying to make this some form of personal attack against me instead of discussing the merits of the light itself. Go back and read my response to the above in that thread.

Putting on my Machiavellian hat I would say that as a newbie with very few posts and with your apparent blind support of this fixture that you work for Vertex? If you want to discuss the pros and cons of the technology in a civil and reasonable fashion I'm all for it but you are derailing this thread by trying to make me look bad in some way, taking posts from other threads out of context and not posting any information of substance.

I would suggest you contribute in a positive fashion or at least in a constructive debate as I am trying to do or refrain from posting please as this is not doing the OP or the board any good.

[Skimmerking]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

#44
08-31-2010, 05:58 PM
TheDogFather
Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ajax, Ontario
Posts: 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron99
Any updates or more then and now photos? Personally, I'm not super impressed with the PAR readings you showed so far. For optimal growth of SPS you want between 400 and 500 PAR. My DIY LED array achieves that in the middle level of the tank (10 inches down my 20 inch deep 75 gallon) at less then full power with the array 6 inches above the water. If I turn it all the way up and lower to 3 to 4 inches above the water I get way more. I get well over 250 PAr at the sand bed 18 or 19 inches below the water surface.

Your clam may do alright but as I understand it clams need 250 to 300 PAR (I may be wrong on that but it's the number I recall).




That's nice Ron99 but this is not a contest and what makes you think you need between 400-500 PAR to grow stony corals well? My SPS and clams say otherwise.

I'm not going to get into a PAR contest with your DIY fixture, I get excellent growth (at 50% power I might add) and my clams are growing very well. The 48" Vertex Illumina LED comes very close in PAR output to my previous fixture, ATI PowerModule with 8x54W T5's and that fixture is no slouch.

I'm guessing your DIY uses optics to achieve higher PAR values but at the cost of spread so you'll have to hang it high to get decent coverage thereby negating all that extra PAR...

-TDF

"Stoney corals appear to photosaturate between 400 and 500 PAR so having 700 or 1000 PAR is probably pointless other than for bragging rights. I doubt it will do the corals much good." -Ron99




could not have said it better myself

Hey buds have a little respect for others on this board you can't come on here and start flapping at people .
Its noce that you have a light fro, Vertex. great ,HOWEVER some one gave you an OPININ OF theirs you can't take that away. If I tell you that your light sucks well fire your input back. But If I tell you that In my opinion that your light suck and give you a example based on another project well great leave it at that .

Just remember that people are allow to think what they want. and if they think that you are an idiot Well that is them thinking out loud!!!!!!.

However im not saying that Im just thinking it. at the end of the day people will have different opinions on lights brand names. So we will always have a debate on lights and other equipment .

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Sorry, have to disagree with that statement. With all the LEDs down the center output will be less uniform. You will have higher PAR directly below the LEDs and it will drop off front to back. Just because the primary optics have 120 degree spread does not actually mean that the output from an emitter is the same across the whole 120 degrees. There is a drop off in output off center from the emitter.

You are entitled to your opinion, I disagree with yours... thats usually the way these things work

I'm a fan of the Illumina's other benefits like Easy expandability, control elements, smart design. Given the modularity of the LED pads, who says you won't be able to add optics if thats what you believe in?

It's just nice to see a smart design with an eye on the future.

as far as the price ... you don't get a Mercedes for the same price as a Kia

[Skimmerking]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Sorry, have to disagree with that statement. With all the LEDs down the center output will be less uniform. You will have higher PAR directly below the LEDs and it will drop off front to back. Just because the primary optics have 120 degree spread does not actually mean that the output from an emitter is the same across the whole 120 degrees. There is a drop off in output off center from the emitter.

Well Ron i love yoru light and would like to get the break down on where to get the stuff i would love to make one of these lights too for my 60" tank or will a 48" light work?
on a 60" tank
48" work?
How many LED's
what type pf optic's
Color how many blues
how many whites
what type of transformer?
what wire.