144G Half Circle Mixed Reef

[JDigital]

Originally Posted by Delphinus

Hi Carmen,

Replacing the pump probably isn't the answer to the microbubbles. I have forgotten what your sump setup is specifically but looking at that last picture there of it, I'm guessing it's something like a 20g and choosing it was probably based on that it can fit in your stand and so on.

The problem is a 20g is a short sump, and short pumps often don't have enough water contact time to shed bubbles by the time it hits the return pump, and thus you end up with microbubbles.

You might see the occasional sump these days that are split down the middle in the long dimension so that water goes down and back, effectively doubling the linear length of the sump .. although the flip side to these designs is that at half the width, water travels twice as fast.

(I'm not suggestion you revamp your sump like this, just sharing it for informational reasons.)

Anyhow. The problem is water speed through the sump.

As an aside this also means replacing the 90's may have a paradoxical effect as this will speed up the sump return and thus increase the speed through the sump.

But here a few things you can try that don't involve a major re-architecture of the sump:

1) A 100micron filter sock. I have to use these myself because of the cube tank arrangement my sump size is limited and without the sock I get *terrible* microbubbles in the main display.

They don't slow the water speed down any, but what they do do (hee hee .. I just said "do do") is contain the splash effect at the point of sump entry so that less bubbles travel onward in your sump. Plus they help polish your water.

2) Also if you have any baffles that create a level drop, these create a weir effect and this can reintroduce bubbles into the water. So raising the water level in downstream section so that the level drop isn't as pronounced can help.

3) Next, how far is the output of your skimmer from the sump return intake? The bubbles could be coming from your skimmer. What I would do (this is another thing I have to do in my sump) is pipe the skimmer output back to the beginning of the sump. This has dual benefits: 1) bubbles have time to be shed, and 2) it creates a slight recirculation effect with the skimmer (ie., the skimmer reskims some of the water it just skimmed) and thus the water exiting the sump back into the main display is theoretically a tiny bit cleaner.

4) Also, there may be a way to repipe the drain pipework from the tank back to the sump so that water slides in an angle rather than crashing straight down into the sump. The goal is to reduce the splashing effect as much as possible of the water entering the sump.

5) If it really gets unbearable, you could try some kind of Herbie style overflow. Herbie systems are the best for no-microbubbles, any tank I do myself from now on will have Herbie overflows. It is possible to get a Herbie overflow in a tank with a single hole drilled, we just need to get creative on the piping. Sphelps had some diagrams posted up a few months ago if you wanted to go looking at details but if this is something you want to consider at some point, maybe we can talk offline a bit and I'll do what I can to help you out on that one.

Good luck!

If I remember right (I did help carry it to her car) its a 40x12x18 or something.. so definitely bigger than a 20G.

An easy fix would be to downgrade your return pump to something less powerful. Slowing the rate at which the water flows through the sump should also help in stopping/reducing any bubbles that may be rolling over your last baffle. I think I only had 5-6x turnover on my 105 with a baffle-less sump w/ Skimmer and never saw a single bubble and my return was 100% hard plumbing. On my 75 I was running 16x turnover with a baffle system and always had some amount of micro-bubbles, just not bad enough to bother me. That is just my opinion though. I am Pro-low-sump-flow. Others disagree and are Pro-High-Flow claiming it provides more filtation and oxygenation, but a skimmer can only process so much water.

Your tank is looking fantastic right now though Carmen. Great photo of the fish.

[Carmen]

Originally Posted by hillegom

Have you ever thought of using spaflex instead of the 90s?

I haven't...perhaps something I should try before looking at a new pump/plumbing...???

Originally Posted by bauder1986

carmen your tank looks awesome, i would sure love a moment to sit and watch your tank sometime!

Thank you!! Even I wish I had more time to just sit and watch! Not enough time to just enjoy!

Originally Posted by Red Coral Aquariums

Check this for me Carmen;
Using a flash light look in the water for bubbles after your last baffle and before your pump. check to see if you are getting any bubbles cascading from your last baffle. Another thing is fill up your return area in your sump level with the last baffle turn off your pump for a few a seconds and plug it back in( try to get rid of any bubbles in your lines) and check your tank after a few hours.
Kevin

I do have some bubbles after the baffles...not enough that I think it would cause this much in the display???But...maybe... it is the problem...??? I have tried shutting down the pump, filling and restarting with no success...not in the lines I don't think. Thanks Kev.

[Carmen]

Originally Posted by Delphinus

Hi Carmen,

Replacing the pump probably isn't the answer to the microbubbles. I have forgotten what your sump setup is specifically but looking at that last picture there of it, I'm guessing it's something like a 20g and choosing it was probably based on that it can fit in your stand and so on.

The problem is a 20g is a short sump, and short pumps often don't have enough water contact time to shed bubbles by the time it hits the return pump, and thus you end up with microbubbles.

You might see the occasional sump these days that are split down the middle in the long dimension so that water goes down and back, effectively doubling the linear length of the sump .. although the flip side to these designs is that at half the width, water travels twice as fast.

(I'm not suggestion you revamp your sump like this, just sharing it for informational reasons.)

Anyhow. The problem is water speed through the sump.

As an aside this also means replacing the 90's may have a paradoxical effect as this will speed up the sump return and thus increase the speed through the sump.

But here a few things you can try that don't involve a major re-architecture of the sump:

1) A 100micron filter sock. I have to use these myself because of the cube tank arrangement my sump size is limited and without the sock I get *terrible* microbubbles in the main display.

They don't slow the water speed down any, but what they do do (hee hee .. I just said "do do") is contain the splash effect at the point of sump entry so that less bubbles travel onward in your sump. Plus they help polish your water.

2) Also if you have any baffles that create a level drop, these create a weir effect and this can reintroduce bubbles into the water. So raising the water level in downstream section so that the level drop isn't as pronounced can help.

3) Next, how far is the output of your skimmer from the sump return intake? The bubbles could be coming from your skimmer. What I would do (this is another thing I have to do in my sump) is pipe the skimmer output back to the beginning of the sump. This has dual benefits: 1) bubbles have time to be shed, and 2) it creates a slight recirculation effect with the skimmer (ie., the skimmer reskims some of the water it just skimmed) and thus the water exiting the sump back into the main display is theoretically a tiny bit cleaner.

4) Also, there may be a way to repipe the drain pipework from the tank back to the sump so that water slides in an angle rather than crashing straight down into the sump. The goal is to reduce the splashing effect as much as possible of the water entering the sump.

5) If it really gets unbearable, you could try some kind of Herbie style overflow. Herbie systems are the best for no-microbubbles, any tank I do myself from now on will have Herbie overflows. It is possible to get a Herbie overflow in a tank with a single hole drilled, we just need to get creative on the piping. Sphelps had some diagrams posted up a few months ago if you wanted to go looking at details but if this is something you want to consider at some point, maybe we can talk offline a bit and I'll do what I can to help you out on that one.

Good luck!

Okay Tony.......
to answer and comment on your ideas/suggestions....

First the sump is 40"X12.5" and filled average 13" (So I don't think it's overly small???)
Three sections: First is skimmer...baffled with three baffles. Middle is return and end is fuge. I have flow from the display entering through spaflex into each end section (ie one in the skimmer section and one entering the fuge.

The reason I think it's the pump is that others with the pS4 report identical issues????

I have no bubbles from the skimmer although I do wonder if the bubbles may be coming from the drop from the fuge. There are bubbles there...although not nearly what I would think would cause what I see entering the display??? It seems fairly "calm" by the time it hits the return bulkhead?

So the filter socks to absorb the bubbles...I could try(I hate filter socks....) but I suppose a cheap fix. I do have a large "bubble effect" from the spaflex but not a splash effect since they are under water.

I did have abit of a drop from the fuge so I have raised that a little more to see if that helps.

Not sure there are too many options on repiping the returns? I am limited I think because of the design of the tank/stand, etc???

Not convinced it's worth looking into a herbie...I am happy with my overflows, they make NO sound. I understand what you said about slowing the flow...don't exactly understand why I would change to a herbie??? And how that would slow the flow???

So something that I don't understand...if slowing things down is the answer...why don't I get any decrease in microobubbles when I close the return valves down?

[Carmen]

Originally Posted by JDigital

If I remember right (I did help carry it to her car) its a 40x12x18 or something.. so definitely bigger than a 20G.

An easy fix would be to downgrade your return pump to something less powerful. Slowing the rate at which the water flows through the sump should also help in stopping/reducing any bubbles that may be rolling over your last baffle. I think I only had 5-6x turnover on my 105 with a baffle-less sump w/ Skimmer and never saw a single bubble and my return was 100% hard plumbing. On my 75 I was running 16x turnover with a baffle system and always had some amount of micro-bubbles, just not bad enough to bother me. That is just my opinion though. I am Pro-low-sump-flow. Others disagree and are Pro-High-Flow claiming it provides more filtation and oxygenation, but a skimmer can only process so much water.

Your tank is looking fantastic right now though Carmen. Great photo of the fish.

Pretty good memory there Josh!

My question as I put to Tony is...then shouldn't the bubbles improve if I turn down the return valves? If I used a less powerful pump, wouldn't that do the same?

Thanks on the compliment! Startin to fill up slowly but surely...
A very easy fish to photograph!! He poses as though he loves it!

[Argentiner]

Tank looks great Carmen. Really starting to fill out. Love that tile fish.

[Red Coral Aquariums]

Originally Posted by Carmen

I haven't...perhaps something I should try before looking at a new pump/plumbing...???



Thank you!! Even I wish I had more time to just sit and watch! Not enough time to just enjoy!



I do have some bubbles after the baffles...not enough that I think it would cause this much in the display???But...maybe... it is the problem...??? I have tried shutting down the pump, filling and restarting with no success...not in the lines I don't think. Thanks Kev.

Those are small in size but high RPM pumps. Even smaller bubbles getting in to that high speed propeller would put to shame some skimmer pumps. Did you try raising the water level in the return area of your sump to that of your last baffle? If not give that a shot and monitor. Josh brings up a good point but at around 700+ GPH after head loss that is not excessive. You can try turning down your ball valve on the output of the pump to discern this.
Kevin

[Delphinus]

Bearing in mind that I'm only running through suggestions that I can think of without being able to see things. (Shoot, Josh helped carry the actual sump to the car, I can't compete with that! What do you need me for.) Small sump only came to mind as one possible cause but that doesn't mean it's the cause of your situation .. it's only as I say, something that comes to mind as a usual culprit. One makes a list of possibles, then you examine to see which ones are plausible, which ones are implausible, and which ones are impossible .. and you work out from there.

First the sump is 40"X12.5" and filled average 13" (So I don't think it's overly small???)

Ok so probably not sump size, which is good. So, we move onto other possibilities.

Not convinced it's worth looking into a herbie...I am happy with my overflows, they make NO sound. I understand what you said about slowing the flow...don't exactly understand why I would change to a herbie??? And how that would slow the flow???

A Herbie doesn't slow the flow. A Herbie sidesteps the issue of microbubbles from your overflow because the input and output are completely submerged and thus cannot introduce air into the sump. If you're convinced the bubbles don't come from the overflow, then, again, it's just something you scratch off the list and move onto the others.

My question as I put to Tony is...then shouldn't the bubbles improve if I turn down the return valves? If I used a less powerful pump, wouldn't that do the same?

Yes. And for what it's worth, dialing back a pump in this matter actually decreases your electrical usage. Pump draw is based more on the speed of the impeller rather than how high the water is being lifted. Throttling back on a pump (always on output side, never on the input side - pumps are good at pushing, but they suck at sucking) is the same as higher head pressure.

But, if you've already dialed back the pump and it made no difference then maybe it is not a sump speed issue after all. The only thing I can think that hasn't been suggested so far is that there is could be a microhole somewhere acting as a venturi and sucking in air. It would realistically be on the inlet side because on the outlet side you'd either see wetness or a lot of saltcreep.

My guess based on everything you've said is that the problem is possibly in your last baffle. If you have a level drop, it is just like a weir and you can get air bubbles. The simple test to confirm this would be to temporarily put more water in your sump so that there is no level drop. If the bubbles go away, there you go; if they don't, well, again if nothing else at least you can eliminate the possibility and know to look somewhere else.

Whatever the cause, hope you find it and be able to fix it.

cheers

[Carmen]

Okay, I raised the level of the water even more in the sump and dialed the pump back even more. Bubbles are still pretty bad. Going to try the filter sock thing.

Now here's the other dilemma.........my nitrates are going UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Up near 50ish+???? I will recheck them at RC tomorrow but WTF??? Shouldn't they be working their way down using the Biopellets?
I have tried to reduce my feedings...(I suck at this)...but I don't think I am completely excessive??? Frozen, once daily, rinsed.

[Carmen]

Originally Posted by Argentiner

Tank looks great Carmen. Really starting to fill out. Love that tile fish.

Thanks Scott!

[Delphinus]

Your feeding does not sound excessive to me. I'm sorry that the nitrates aren't going down.

Are you using RO/DI or tap? I'm actually having some pretty bad nitrate (and for the first time ever) phosphate buildups. I use RO/DI for my SW but I wonder if the membrane is going and maybe it's a spring runoff issue? My FW tank is just raw tapwater and it's off the charts all of a sudden, which you'd think wouldn't be possible with the amount of plants in there (well, now algae ). So I was thinking I might test my source water tomorrow and see if that could be an explanation.

We're on different reservoirs but it stands to reason if spring runoff is starting that both the Elbow and Bow river water systems could be having issues?

Wonder if anyone else is noticing more NO3 and/or PO4 all of a sudden lately?