BioRock Experiment

[wolf_bluejay]

Originally Posted by ScubaSteve

Ha! You're not the first out of towner to say that today . Only reason I was looking for someone around here is that I could troubleshoot it and measure the results. I do want to actually make some scientific claim to either prove or refute this thing. Sometimes certain procedures in aquaria get a fairly subjectiveIf I don't find anyone around here I'll gladly work with people out of town.

I'm going to do a little more footwork and put together some plans and the materials needed. I will gladly build a few of them or pass the plans on. You need to be careful with the selection of you anode material so that you don't get anodic corrosion and poison your tank. Today I did a few experiments and was able to form limestone on the cathode. It actually happens really fast!

The happening fast part is where I was worried. I was thinking that with unregulated current you would pretty much be electroplating the medium.
If you have some plans I would love it, (B.Sc in Comp Sci and Physics) so my tank is more toy than hobby.

Of course I wish there was a way to make the metal mesh removable, as I was thinking of attempting to "grow" the shapes I want for aquascaping. But as soon as the current is removed the metal will be a problem.

It would be neat to see how fast you could grow limestone with lots of power and really, really high dosing rates.

[ScubaSteve]

Electroplating is exactly what you are doing to the electrode. Actually to be more correct its electro-accretion of minerals, but who's getting technical here? . Once that outer layer forms it slows down. Also, it depends on how high you drive the voltage, whether you leave it unregulated, and so on. But really, the idea IS tho to plating limestone onto the growing medium, that's where the magic is.

The coral itself would not necessarily attach to the metal. It would attach to the accretion layer which can be (easily) chipped off. All the metals that I would spec would be marine safe, so you could grow into those directly. Also, you don't need a metal to be conductive. You could easily grow this onto a carbon as well.. just something to mull over there.

Give me a week to gather a bit more info and I'll let you know what I come up with.

[Kryptic4L]

would this not be equivelent to a farmer's feild where as the lime becomes the ideal soil.

Still not sure how this translate's to us, as the plating draws in mineral's thus creating more farming land. Which would be something we have more control over on the smaller scale .

Also, my train of thought would lead toward's if they are placed in a tank, and the plating is drawing more of the mineral's near the electrically charged area. This could potentially take nutrients away from subject B putting it at a disadvantage where A gains a slight advantage.

[vic622]

With respect to the metals leaching, and not getting technical, could there be a way to create a grid using carbon fibre/rod/mat rather than metal?
I'm not sure about the potentials, or if there is an anode/cathode issue, but it might solve the problem of leaching once the current has been turned off, enabling the base material to be retained and have SPS growth directly on the base?!?

[banditpowdercoat]

The way I see it, if the limestone builds on the structure first, then Corals grow on limestone. You just chip off limestone/coral and voila, a frag to relocate. Or, just take clippings off, utilizing the 3-6x growth rate. A little structure in the corner of ones tank could be used to propagate frags continously. No need to worry about turning the electricity off, leeching etc. just keep growing. Also, for frag businesses, this could mean a great help. Set up complete tanks with mesh growing surfaces in them.

[ScubaSteve]

Awesome! This is what I like to see! Ok, Let me respond to each of these in turn...

Originally Posted by Kryptic4L

would this not be equivelent to a farmer's feild where as the lime becomes the ideal soil.

Still not sure how this translate's to us, as the plating draws in mineral's thus creating more farming land. Which would be something we have more control over on the smaller scale .

Also, my train of thought would lead toward's if they are placed in a tank, and the plating is drawing more of the mineral's near the electrically charged area. This could potentially take nutrients away from subject B putting it at a disadvantage where A gains a slight advantage.

Krytic4L, let me first say, no one really knows how or why this works so I don't really have a definitive answer. I was thinking along the same lines as you so I went looking for previous research results and found a few things that might answer that thought.

First, the minerals that deposit are nearly the same as the limestone substrates that coral usually grow off of, so this might not explain accelerated growth. Second, when testing this in the Maldives there was a major bleaching event (heat) that wiped out most of the natural reefs and damaged the Biorock reefs; what they noticed was that areas of the coral that were closest to the cathode structure were unscathed (ie. bottom and sides) and the parts furthest away bleached. The natural reef next the the biorock saw the corals bleach all over. Third, when they shut off the power for a period of time the coral growth appeared to slow. From this, it suggests that the charged electrode is playing some active role though no one knows what; it could be as you suggest where it's sort of like a fertilizer... but I hypothesize it's not the additional growing "land" that makes the difference.

Also, our tanks and the oceans have far too much flow to create regions of feast or famine. Ok, if you ran with no pumps, yeah that'd be the case but who does that? If there is a region of high dissolved mineral concentration it'll only be at most a millimeter thick around the rack.Yes, the structure itself does pull calc, alk and mag out of the water (thus needing to dose) but at a rate not much faster than a large mother colony would (I do have some data on accretion layer growth rates).

Originally Posted by vic622

With respect to the metals leaching, and not getting technical, could there be a way to create a grid using carbon fibre/rod/mat rather than metal?
I'm not sure about the potentials, or if there is an anode/cathode issue, but it might solve the problem of leaching once the current has been turned off, enabling the base material to be retained and have SPS growth directly on the base?!?

Vic, that is a concern of mine as well. The corals would likely be easy to remove from the structure so you wouldn't need to worry much about metal left behind. In addition, the cathode structure is protected from corrosion while the device is in operation. The anode is more of a concern and will likely be carbon, titanium or magnesium.

But to answer your question, yes you can make the mat from carbon. This is something I'm considering but it might be an expensive option (it'd be nice if I could grow it onto charcoal/activated carbon ). What I would like it to have is a frag plug that you basically plug in and you do all your growing on that and not have to worry about the rack.

Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat

The way I see it, if the limestone builds on the structure first, then Corals grow on limestone. You just chip off limestone/coral and voila, a frag to relocate. Or, just take clippings off, utilizing the 3-6x growth rate. A little structure in the corner of ones tank could be used to propagate frags continously. No need to worry about turning the electricity off, leeching etc. just keep growing. Also, for frag businesses, this could mean a great help. Set up complete tanks with mesh growing surfaces in them.

You're spot on!

[ScubaSteve]

Oh, and just to throw a monkey into this even more... this does work with softies as well! Just something to think about.

[SmallFry]

Originally Posted by ScubaSteve

Oh, and just to throw a monkey into this even more... this does work with softies as well! Just something to think about.

I recall reading something about it (or something similar) a couple of years ago. I think, if I remember correctly that the way it helps things grow faster is that it puts the cathode (and anything attached to it) at a different (lower?) potential than it would otherwise be at. This makes it easier for the coral to build the calcium carbonate structure that makes up the hard part of the coral. The calcium actually wants to come out of solution which makes the corals life a lot easier...

In the article I read it was being investigated as a way to keep corals growing in conditions where the ocean was being acidified such that they'd normally have problems building a skeleton.

Presumably then, it would have a similar effect on the growth of any stony coral, though this assumes (maybe a big assumption) that it is the ability to grow skeleton that is the rate determining factor in the coral growth, not food or something else.

Dunno whether that helped or made it more confusing..
Rob.

[Ian]

Sooo interested in this wish I was a worth consideration but my tank is too new and I am lacking experience with sps.....kinda tweaks my molecular biology background though...keep us informed and if it works I want in on the 2nd round of trials