Looking for some old-timers who left and came back in to the hobby

[Zoaelite]

Originally Posted by christyf5

Euroreefs still rock, unless you've won the lottery, then go with a BK

+1, if you have the money to spend then go with the bubble king but I love my Euroreef and for what I payed for it its more than worth it.
Levi

[StirCrazy]

hey welcome back, not much has changed, you still want MH for the best lighting, T5 HO (is no T5VHO) has replaced VHO and PC. (about 50% more output than a PC)

skimmer have gotten better, you can actualy spend 200ish and get a diecent skimmer for up to 100 gal tank.

the other stuff, just like anything else depends on the fad at the time.


Steve

[Canadian]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

hey welcome back, not much has changed, you still want MH for the best lighting, T5 HO (is no T5VHO) has replaced VHO and PC. (about 50% more output than a PC)

I know you like to say this but what is it based on? Your measurements of a Tek fixture in Safari way back when? For reference, I measured the PAR of my 6x24W ATI Sunpower fixture with 8 month old lamps in a 24x24x20 tank and found the following measurements:

At the surface: ~ 600-700 μmol m-2 s-1
Mid tank: ~ 400 μmol m-2 s-1
Bottom of the tank: ~ 200 μmol m-2 s-1

Please tell me how that supports the contention that "you still want MH for the best lighting" and the statement, "50% more output than a PC". From what I've seen of reported PAR values in numerous tanks, there are a lot of MH setups that would have a difficult time getting a PAR reading of 200 μmol m-2 s-1 20" below the surface (the old lamps notwithstanding). Also keep in mind these are values with fewer than 150W of light and mind the fact that shorter T5 lamps are known to produce considerably less PAR than longer lamps.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Canadian

I know you like to say this but what is it based on? Your measurements of a Tek fixture in Safari way back when? For reference, I measured the PAR of my 6x24W ATI Sunpower fixture with 8 month old lamps in a 24x24x20 tank and found the following measurements:

At the surface: ~ 600-700 μmol m-2 s-1
Mid tank: ~ 400 μmol m-2 s-1
Bottom of the tank: ~ 200 μmol m-2 s-1

.

your own measurments confirm it.. I had 600 with the cheep bulbs and 720 with my ABs at the bottom of a 24" deep tank plus 6" air so for a distance of 30" so at the bottom my MH were putting out over 3X what your lights are.

you don't need to get defencive of the T5's though as they do have a place, they replaced PC, VHO ect and do a exalent job of it and offer more color combanations which is great. but for the pure punch power you can't beat MH.

another problem that comes to light is the numbers the T5 people like to use to compare are old sanjay tests and such were the MH were tested with out reflectors. test your T5 with out reflectors and tell me what happens. the same thing happened when 150watt DE first came out on the market, which led to claimes of being better than 400 watt SE set ups. the 150 bulbs were being tested with optimum reflextors against numbers that werre derived from black box testing.

to show how much reflectors can skew things, there is now way I should have had a higher PAR level with my 250 watt SE AB's than 400 watt SE's but I never found a 400 that could beat mine. but that is cuze I used computer generated reflector patterens designed for office lighting and made my own reflectors out of 98% silvernickel plated material which is the highest you could get at that time. the 400 Iwasaki was on a home made pollished aluminum reflector.

I have so standoffs and a good T5 ballast so I will get some bulbs and if I get my MH this week I will do some "no reflector testing" just have to figure out how to eliminate the reflector in a 150 watt DE. I can do it in my garage so I can set up exact distances from the center of the bulb. heck I can even go longer distances if I want to see the drop off values. won't be till after christmas though.. going to be busy with a new puppy next weekend for a while.

how are you liking your new meter and which one did you end up getting?

Steve

[Canadian]

Steve,

I wasn't commenting so much on the PAR differences between T5 and MH in my previous post. I was commenting on the statements you made: "MH is best" which is a pretty vague and subjective statement, and T5s produce "50% more output than a PC". The relatively low values with only 144W of 24W lamps in my tank show that you can readily get values throughout the tank that will happily keep SPS. There's no need to have PAR in excess of 700 μmol m-2 s-1 based on most of the recent publications on PAR and SPS. And with the ability to readily change out a lamp to change viewing color with T5s I'd have to say "T5 is best"

When you're talking about getting 600 and 720 μmol m-2 s-1 you aren't comparing a 250W MH to 144W of 24W T5s are you? That's not a very reasonable comparison.

The light spread with T5s is pretty uniform throughout the tank. This has its pros and cons. Most of the good reflectors for MH are now doing nothing to increase the intensity but are trying to improve spread. I believe Sanjay's PAR values are measured "hot spots" 18" directly under the lamp so, while the absence of a reflector will impact the numbers, it's probably not near the presumed significance. And I don't even look at Sanjay's reported PAR values. I prefer to look at real world measurements in a typical application including reflectors in someone's tank. So I wouldn't say I'm one of the "T5 people" to whom you're referring.

As I said above, my measured values are on the low end of the spectrum based on the fact that I'm using 24W lamps and only 6 of them. So I'd like to see some tank measured PAR values with PC lit tanks that support the contention that T5s produce 50% more output than PC on fairly compared tanks. From what I've seen about 18" away from two 36W PCs produces somewhere in the neighbourhood of 30 μmol m-2 s-1. Obviously, T5s benefit from the design improvement whereby they can be easily fitted into a high quality single light reflector and I'm not comparing equal wattages.

how are you liking your new meter and which one did you end up getting?

I didn't end up buying one because Progressive Reef brought in a few Apogee Quantum MQ-200 meters and decided to use one as a "rental" unit. They also have a Hanna phosphate photometer so now I don't have to buy one

And congrats on the new puppy. It's a cutie!

[Canadian]

This is the last time I take this thread off topic but it does address prop's original question about current hobby trends.

Here are PAR measurements on a T5 lit tank with 234W of 39W T5 lighting (a reasonably fair comparison to a typical 250W Halide):

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...0#post16117620

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Canadian

This is the last time I take this thread off topic but it does address prop's original question about current hobby trends.

Here are PAR measurements on a T5 lit tank with 234W of 39W T5 lighting (a reasonably fair comparison to a typical 250W Halide):

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...0#post16117620

quite hijacking his thread for your own T5 propaganda

seriously though thoes numbers are not much different than your own. still way less than a deicent MH setup.

now so you don't spend a day trying to find some more stuff, I will say as I have said befor, T5's are good, they give a even light (although no shimmer) they are good enough to grow SPS as you could grow them with VHO and PC, why not T5 when it is a higher out put, and the assortment of buld is great.. allowing you to custom blend colors for a nice look. but I don't agree on a lot of the claims which you have just re-enforced my point a couple times now and if you are getting rid of 250 watts of MH and going to 250 watts of T5s you will not save in energy anything apreacable, and heat output will be the same, although it will be better disapated in the T5 unit so won't affect the tank as much.

I actualy had a pig post ready to go last night but I hit the wrong button and lost it all and didn't want to re-type it. basicly the jist was by adding more T5 bulbs you are not increasing the intensity only the spread and evenness, by going to bigger bulbs on a bigger tank it is the same idea, while you will get a larger coverage area from going to bulbs that are twice as many watts the increase in PAR at the bottom will be minimal and will be the result of more complet coverage not an increase in intensity.

this is why I feel the perfect combo would be MH and T5's you can get a nice 10K MH with a tone of PAR and then use a bunch of T5's to blend the color and smooth out the coverage a bit.

Steve