Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?

[intarsiabox]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

Yeah I absolutely do. What do you think would have happened if those 30 players went and lined up at some random Calgary clinic? Media circus, autograph line, a huge disruption in an already messed up situation. The Flames front office knew this because they deal with it every day so they phoned AHS to see if they could avoid said circus, it being in everyone's interest to do so.

Now if you're going to send somebody out to do 30 vaccinations it's not going to take a lot more time or energy to do 100. Planning is the same, travel is the same, etc. They may as well get as much done as they can.

Both of these points are perfectly reasonable in a situation where the vaccine was available to everyone and there were no supply issues. Turns out that wasn't the case and going ahead with the clinic for the Flames was a bad idea because of it. The point I'm trying to make is that the Flames are not the guys in charge of deciding if the supply is available, that's Alberta Health Services and that's who screwed up.

So first you say it's not right, now you say it is? A Flames manager contacted somebody he knew in AHS not the other way around, that is why people are getting fired because it was snuck through the AHS. Do think these guys hide in their house all day with the blinds closed or something. No other team got special treatment and had a clinic open up for just them, other players and their families had to wait in line like everyone else. Only the Flames would cause a media circus but no other team? That's just a poor excuse to justify themselves. I guess if you feel others deserve better treatment than you, then you have every right to your opinion. Most Albertans and people all across Canada are pretty upset that so few clinics are available to the public but one gets opened up to serve a single group just so they wouldn't have to stand in line in the cold like all the young children, pregnant women and cronically ill do. It's funny how these people can all stand in line but a bunch of healthy atheletes can't, that's just sad IMO. Nobody is complaining that the Flames got the vaccine or caused a shortage, it is how they got it. If people don't speak up now it will always be tolerated and the general public will continue to pay the extra costs so the rich and famous get preferential treatment. I'll admit that it really boils down to one flames manager and one or two people in AHS but it really makes both entire parties look bad.

[FitoPharmer]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Please cite some publication by credible scientists with actual data and information.

i have asked you to do the same thing to prove its safe and you just ignore the question.

[Veng68]

Originally Posted by intarsiabox

So first you say it's not right, now you say it is? A Flames manager contacted somebody he knew in AHS not the other way around, that is why people are getting fired because it was snuck through the AHS. Do think these guys hide in their house all day with the blinds closed or something. No other team got special treatment and had a clinic open up for just them, other players and their families had to wait in line like everyone else. Only the Flames would cause a media circus but no other team? That's just a poor excuse to justify themselves. I guess if you feel others deserve better treatment than you, then you have every right to your opinion. Most Albertans and people all across Canada are pretty upset that so few clinics are available to the public but one gets opened up to serve a single group just so they wouldn't have to stand in line in the cold like all the young children, pregnant women and cronically ill do. It's funny how these people can all stand in line but a bunch of healthy atheletes can't, that's just sad IMO. Nobody is complaining that the Flames got the vaccine or caused a shortage, it is how they got it. If people don't speak up now it will always be tolerated and the general public will continue to pay the extra costs so the rich and famous get preferential treatment. I'll admit that it really boils down to one flames manager and one or two people in AHS but it really makes both entire parties look bad.

I think the Leafs, Raptors & Calgary's farm team in Abbotsford (or is it Chilliwack) had the shot.

I think there is an article on TSN website.

Cheers,
Vic

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

i have asked you to do the same thing to prove its safe and you just ignore the question.

Actually, i think you might have asked somebody else. I have posted a bunch of scientifically accurate information that you can double check for yourself if you like. Since most seem to rather watch youtube I'll post some links

First start here with the actual monograph for the vaccine:

http://www.gsk.ca/english/docs-pdf/Arepanrix_PIL_CAPA01v01.pdf


This has alot of information from human testing of this and the similar H5N1 vaccine. If you want to see actual clinical trial results of using this or a similar vaccine here it is. I would urge you to read it and then ask me to help you interpret any of the results you aren't clear on. The reader's digest summary is that there may be slightly higher incidence of mild side effects like pain at the injection site etc. But no more serious side effects then placebo which basically means that people suffering serious medical outcomes after being vaccinated were probably a result of other medical conditions and not the vaccine. For example, of the first 9,873 people receiving the H5N1 vaccine five people died of unrelated causes (cancer, heart attack etc. not due to the vaccine). None of the 9,873 people had any serious adverse side effects from the vaccine. For reference, 9800 people is on the high end for the numbers of people tested in drug clinical trials. It is a large statistically relevant group.

As for the ingredients here is an example:

Squalene:

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/to...nd_answers/en/

The MSDS doesn't tell much either then in purified form it is an irritant. You can see the LD50 in mice is 5g/Kg. So in human terms that would equate to having 50% fatality after being injected with something like 275 grams of squalene. The vaccine contains 10.69 mg which is more then 16,000 times less squalene.

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Squalene-9925073

I don't have time to post others right now but if you look at my other posts you will see similar information for the toxicity of thimerosal. The other components of the adjuvant are vitamin E and polysorbate 80 which is a common food additive.

[pinhead]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Just to add, if you think youtube is a good source of information on any subject then I feel really sad for you. Most of this kind of stuff is complete nonsense and not credible at all. Please cite some publication by credible scientists with actual data and information. If you want to link to stuff like those videos I suggest you research them a little more carefully and find out more about the people making those statements.

If you tried these types of arguments or used evidence like this in a court of law you would lose your case badly.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

i have asked you to do the same thing to prove its safe and you just ignore the question.

You continue to ignore the answer. Last week you asked the same thing and I responded:

Originally Posted by pinhead

Searching H1N1 vaccine, I get 1217 journal references for h1n1 vaccine - 46 for the month of October alone. You would then have to go to a university biomedical library to read these articles as they are subscription based and very few are available for free.

You responded with:

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

that's nice...... have you done this? so there is 3500 references for h1n1 did you read any of them?

And as a matter of fact, I have read many of the Internet acessible journal references as well the videos you have linked to. So I have looked at both sides of the argument and if you keep on responding the same way, I must assume that you have not read the scientific journals.

[intarsiabox]

Originally Posted by Veng68

I think the Leafs, Raptors & Calgary's farm team in Abbotsford (or is it Chilliwack) had the shot.

I think there is an article on TSN website.

Cheers,
Vic

That's even worse than what happened in Alberta as these provinces already had priority lists set up from the start. In Alberta though the Stampeders, Eskimos and Oilers have received no special treatment. Nobody can tell me that none of the players on any of these teams didn't know that there were long waits and they were being bumped ahead of everyone. Myself, I would refuse to be bumped ahead of others, if you were in front of me in a line then you deserve to get the shot first. Our system only works if the policies are obeyed by all regardless of the size of your paycheck. This time it was only for a flu shot, there are long wait times for organ transplants as well is it okay to jump the queue in these cases as well? To what level is queue jumping acceptable? You need to understand that I'm only defending the rights of every Canadian not just a privilaged few.

[bbb1080]

It's not about you getting sick. It's about herd immunity. Getting the vaccination can save not your life but the succeptable person in the elevator beside you. We have had 6 kids die this week in peds ICU of h1n1 that were healthy and vibrant, not immunocompromised. Those deaths were preventable. Don't think about yourself and make it your prerogative to risk others lives out of ignorance of a simple very low risk immunization.
As a side note there seems to be a bit of cross
immunity for individuals born before 1955, it is less important that these individuals be vaccinated.
Sorry for the rant but this issue hits close to home for me.

[intarsiabox]

Originally Posted by bbb1080

It's not about you getting sick. It's about herd immunity. Getting the vaccination can save not your life but the succeptable person in the elevator beside you. We have had 6 kids die this week in peds ICU of h1n1 that were healthy and vibrant, not immunocompromised. Those deaths were preventable. Don't think about yourself and make it your prerogative to risk others lives out of ignorance of a simple very low risk immunization.
As a side note there seems to be a bit of cross
immunity for individuals born before 1955, it is less important that these individuals be vaccinated.
Sorry for the rant but this issue hits close to home for me.

This is why I got my kids and myself vaccinated. Not so much for myself but for my daughters, their friends, school mates and neices and nephews that we come in contact with daily. You don't know who is a carrier or who is especially suseptible just by looking at them and I don't really want to be the cause of someone's child dying.

[RuGlu6]

Originally Posted by jonnytens

The media has spun this swine flu epidemic right out of control....everyone thinks they are going to die...you are not. the people who have their heads up their asses are the ones lining up like sheep to get a shot in the arm with a largely untested vaccine and they really don't know why....just because TV said so.

Very well said. short and to the point LIKE A SHEEP !

[bbb1080]

its because we, the medical community, say so. This isn't about you, as i said, its about the 15-25% of people who will die shortly after getting H1N1, the ones that arent in the "typical toll" , could be your wife, kids, maybe you. The important thing is we dont know who, and the vaccine works. Its a live attenuated virus that forces your body to mount an immune response, simple. Before deciding if you will be one of the ignorant, lazy, uniformed *******s that put so many others at risk, please try and put this into perspective. We vaccinate to save lifes. Polio, small pox, MMR, they all function on basically the same principle and they have all worked.