Puffer eating clownfish

[superduperwesman]

Originally Posted by my2rotties

We all learn from our mistakes and grow from them.

I'm confused what you learned that it's wrong? For lfs to bring in big fish?... you bought one so there is obviously a market of which you are a part?

And it's too late this time but you'll know for next time? But in the mean time everyday you will look into a tank at something that you're against. I just don't understand how you learned this valuable lesson and yet you continue to be a part of it everyday until the fish dies. And if that is going to be a short span you should give him to someone with a bigger tank or put him out of his misery b/c like you say below "I will not contribute to the unethical treatment of animals if possible"

And if he lives a long time why not get another one?? Oh right... quality of life. You would never want another one to have the bad life you're about to give this one???

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I didn't pick my puffer due to his size, but his health and movement....
...My puffer is not special due to his size, he is special because he is an awesome fish.

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I was going to go with a smaller puffer, but this guy seemed so special, not only due to his size.

Maybe not solely on size but in part.

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I love a good argument so keep it coming.

This is not a good argument because good arguments are founded on something solid. Your argument is dynamic and changes and in doing so it's irrational, and illogical.

Originally Posted by my2rotties

Maybe I will get a reef done on my back some day, thanks for an awesome idea. I appreciate it. It would be spectacular to say the least.

Yeah sounds really nice

Originally Posted by my2rotties

We live in a throw away society and always just "get another one". Perhaps if we think about why things happen and don't just get something to replace another we would be in a much better place with this world.

Strange that you say this b/c from what I can tell you spent more time crying over Ed and giving a sob story than actually trying to get some insight as to why your 55 crashed... so get that one figured out yet?

Originally Posted by my2rotties

Yes I am selfish for being in this hobby, yes I want a reef in this house. However I will not contribute to the unethical treatment of animals if possible. I am not perfect by all means but I want to always better myself by lessons I have learned.

I guess you need to define ethical?? Is it ethical to give animals a lower quality of life for your own personal enjoyment?? I'm pretty sure a tank isn't the best environment for a lot of fish that we keep, so how is it ethical to sacrifice their quality of life for your enjoyment? It's not ethical it's selfish but I'm ok with that because my quality of life is more important to me then there's but again you can't play both sides. "Agreed I'm selfish... but I won't mistreat animals" Technically you are... oh right... "I wontif possible." Unless you'd like to redefine mistreatment?

Originally Posted by my2rotties

Of course I will be back to a LFS, just not that one.

Sure you wont... ps your husband going for you is basically the same. No I don't wanna go out for pizza I'm feeling fat, but can you bring me back some

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I unknowingly bought a fish that was larger because he was caught as an older fish. I did not even consider it until I saw him hunting like a wild animal hunts. My bad, not the puffer's. Whats done is done... It happened for a reason, and I learned a big lesson for it. I won't bring him back to the store now since I picked him and will deal with it. Just because I am a retard does not mean the fish should suffer any more stress by being brought back to the store. He is not a piece of clothing, he is a living creature. You can just bet that I won't do it again. Any large mature fish will be a captive raised fish that outgrew his owner's tank. You can bet on it. My next puffer is exactly that, so I learned and did something with my new knowledge on my mistake.

I make ignorant and dumb purchases as well, because I liked something and wanted it now, but I don't come home and say how there should be laws to stop me from being stupid

Oh ok... you're right you we're ignorant so it's ok... np. To bad we live in "such a throw out society" but lets let people use ignorance as an excuse. But then your mad because there is a market for the exact kind of ignorance you displayed.

But now your eyes are opened and you'll never do it again and you want to change the terrible things in the hobby... NO BIG FISH! NO BIG FISH! oh him he's a puffer... cool hey! He's miserable but I decided to keep him anyway. And if he's happy then why you hating on the lfs?? And saying there should be laws against big fish?

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I do think you fail to understand my point and that is alright by me. It is sometimes hard to convey a message when expression cannot be seen and written word is only there to speak on one's behalf.

I think I do understand... that it's irrational

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I am a decent person that is not staring down at anybody, I just don't know better in many aspects of this hobby. As a consumer I have the option to shop where I want to shop. If one place does not work for me, I will go to another.

You can shop where ever you want... I just hope you don't find a reason to bash all the lfs and wonder how you'll stay in the hobby when you blame them for your bad choices and vow never to go back after one bad experience

Originally Posted by my2rotties

At the end of the day it is me whom has to live with myself. I do take the deaths of my fish seriously because it is my responsibility to keep the safe and healthy. When they die of old age it is one thing, but when they die due to the lack of my knowledge it is my fault.

Do you cry when you eat salmon?? Or is it ok for taste enjoyment and just not visual enjoyment? You're shortening the life of every fish you own and your ok with that? So you don't take the deaths that seriously... and I'm only making this point b/c again it seems like you try to play both sides of the fence and show how you care sooo much about your fish, but not enough to not support the hobby.

I know we can care about the fish we have but at the end of the day if we over emphasis how much we care and how serious the fishes deaths are than we shouldn't have them. At the end of the day we don't take a fishes death that seriously b/c we'll still sacrifice it for food, or for pleasure.

Please don't tell me that the food part is a need.

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I knew I would open up a can of worms when I started these two different topics, but debating and education in the debate is the best knowledge anyone can glean in life. At least I know I should not feel so badly about certain issues and if I did not bring these topics forward I would be beating myself over it. At least I can relax and enjoy my hobby but still have lines drawn for my own personal ethics on what I think is right. Does not mean everyone needs to do what I do, but at least I feel I made a difference in my world.

I guess I'm just trying to help you draw those lines because right now yours looks like this:

[my2rotties]

Now you have brought up so many topics the are not really relevant to what I was posting, but that is alright. I see you love a good argument, but I do not have the time to play with you any longer. I am sure you and I could do this for all eternity. As much as I would love to finish this debate it is getting me bored and tired now.

I could go on and on, but just don't have the ambition to do so anymore. It was fun and I am sure we will do it again in the future. I wish I knew how to make a cute little picture too, but sadly, I don't have the skills.

You way of thinking will seal the fate of this hobby some day when we are not allowed to buy any captive fish at all, since there will none to buy. I would not have bought my big puffer if he was not available for me to buy. You missed my points entirely, but I can't blame you for that.

Have a b=nice day.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by my2rotties

Now you have brought up so many topics the are not really relevant to what I was posting, but that is alright. I see you love a good argument, but I do not have the time to play with you any longer. I am sure you and I could do this for all eternity. As much as I would love to finish this debate it is getting me bored and tired now.

I'm a little lost to what your argument was, could you maybe help me out cause I'm a little confused.
One minute you're saying one thing the next something completely different and contradicting.

So basically are you happy with your purchase? Did you think it was the right thing to do?

Are you still mad at the LFS? If so why?

Do you believe bringing in larger fish is wrong? How so?

Where do you draw your ethical line? Seriously I'm really curious, everyone has a different opinion but I'm having difficulty reading yours.

[my2rotties]

I did admit I contradicted myself on many matters. When you have mixed feelings about things, that does happen.

I am more mad at myself then the store since I depended on what he said in deciding to bring the fish home. But in his defense he has a business to run, and although I might think it is his responsibility to answers questions clearly, perhaps my expectations are too high. My choice to not go there anymore is because I feel I cannot trust his word or he does not have enough knowledge to help me out. Yes I can research, which I did do. If I don't trust a person I am dealing with, why would I do business with them again?

I am happy with the fish. He is strong and healthy, great colours, that is why I picked him. I do not blame him for doing what comes naturally he is a wild fish. I don't know how old he really is, I was told about a year or year and a half. I was told by a very experienced keeper of tangs that the large fish in the store whom is supposed to be the same age as my puffer, must be at least five years old. I have no knowledge of fish to know how you can even tell how old a wild fish really is. I go by the word of the LFS, as this is their business to know.

I am on the fence about things. However young fish do adapt much more easily. Any animal or human can adapt more easily to anything when they are young. I do not feel mature fish should be pulled from a reef. They survived for several years in nature and are entitled to breeding and carrying the circle of life. My big issues with capturing wild fish is the use of cyanide and gas to stun them and capture them. I don't think it is fair to do that and kill many other creatures in the process of capturing fish for the hobbyist. When I look at the big picture when people net them it can be compared to being hunted. It happens everyday to eat or be eaten. However, when they are poisoned and stunned that is crossing the line. When I think of that, then even the larger fish whom are netted would have been eaten by a predator and would be gone any ways. SO there I am contradicting myself again. I see it, and have seen it many times. I just feel it is wrong, and now I am giving myself reasons to justify it. Perhaps when I justify it I can accept what reef keepers are doing.

I guess I change my feelings due to being asked about them and I learn more about the issues I brought up in the first place. Because I am debating with you guys, it makes me open my mind on how things really are... does that makes sense?

So where do I draw the line?

I think it is awful to catch fish with chemicals. Make it a more level playing field and catch them by net. I wish people had some mercy and would leave the big fish in the ocean to reproduce and provide us with young fish that can adapt to captivity. They are more valuable in the oceans then they are in a display tank.

When people go into an LFS and ask questions, the seller should be honest, and/or knowledgeable about what we are purchasing. Some buyers don't always know all the questions to ask, but a seller should try to inform a buyer as much as possible prior to the purchase. Sellers should ask the buyer questions about their set ups to see if the buyer can provide a proper home. I know some people want what they want and are get it no matter what. However people that have an interest in the well being of their fish and tank mates should be regarded.

I think I do read into things too much because I have owned and rescued various animals all my life. I fostered exotic birds that were unwanted because they are too much work. The cockatoo self mutilated herself because nobody paid attention to her. When they hit breeding ago, they become unmanageable due to their desire for a mate and to breed. People think birds can be kept in a cage with little or no care and buy them. I rescued a rehomed a couple of rabbits since people think they can live in a filthy cage with no human contact. I rescued some goldfish from my gym since they were living in a cess pool and could not breath anymore. I rescued Rottweilers and a Pit Bull from horrible fates and they spent the rest of their lives with me.

Perhaps fish are not near to being the aforementioned animals, but because I saw what they went through, it makes me think really hard about ANY creature under my care. I understand I am reading into this all too much, but I have seen a lot of suffering from puppy mills, pet stores and impulse buying of pets people are not equipped to care for. They are just fish, right?

I will stop mentioning why I look into things and think way too much about the fish industry. I know I am comparing things that are not the same but cannot help it anyways. So yes, I am all over the place, but am glad I am addressing my questions and concerns, and being called out for why I think the way that I do.

YES I love the hobby, YES I love buying new livestock for my tank. I am no different then all of you. I don't know where the lines are drawn in this hobby so this is why I asked in the first place. Will I keep my fish? Of course I will. I learned a lot from him, and from the members of this forum.

Originally Posted by sphelps

I'm a little lost to what your argument was, could you maybe help me out cause I'm a little confused.
One minute you're saying one thing the next something completely different and contradicting.

So basically are you happy with your purchase? Did you think it was the right thing to do?

Are you still mad at the LFS? If so why?

Do you believe bringing in larger fish is wrong? How so?

Where do you draw your ethical line? Seriously I'm really curious, everyone has a different opinion but I'm having difficulty reading yours.

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I am happy with the fish. He is strong and healthy, great colours, that is why I picked him. I do not blame him for doing what comes naturally he is a wild fish. I don't know how old he really is, I was told about a year or year and a half

Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression you feel your puffer killing the clownfish was a learned behavior because it was captured at a larger size. You also think that this would have been less likely to happen if you had introduced a juvenile puffer.

Based on my experience with these fish I would say that is a faulty line of reasoning. They are curious and unpredictable regardless of age and this could have happened at any time. I've noticed little difference in behavior between juvi and older imports.

[superduperwesman]

Originally Posted by my2rotties

Now you have brought up so many topics the are not really relevant to what I was posting, but that is alright.

Yeah you're right almost everything was completely irrelevant...???

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I see you love a good argument, but I do not
have the time to play with you any longer. I am sure you and I could do this for all eternity. As much as I would love to finish this debate it is getting me bored and tired now.

I could go on and on, but just don't have the ambition to do so anymore. It was fun and I am sure we will do it again in the future.

Again the story changes:

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I love a good arguement so keep it coming.

but that's cool I understand why your tired... it's hard to argue when you're not being rational or logical. Better luck next time.

But in the mean time I'm glad your done "playing" with your little toy... sounds like a throw away kinda attitude to me.... "if only we could fix that in the world"?

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I wish I knew how to make a cute little picture too, but sadly, I don't have the skills.

Belittling my skills with sarcasm only works if they're actually my skills...I never made the picture

Originally Posted by my2rotties

You way of thinking will seal the fate of this hobby some day when we are not allowed to buy any captive fish at all, since there will none to buy.

Yeah your right my humble 10 gallon is basically emptying the ocean as we speak.

And who's going to stop me from buying these "captive fish" if there is none?? Again your statements are completely irrational.

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I would not have bought my big puffer if he was not available for me to buy. You missed my points entirely, but I can't blame you for that.

Passing the buck... it's not your fault it's whoever provided the fish and I wouldn't have killed the guy if I didn't have a gun available to me.

You can blame me or your lfs for whatever you want. You have been, so why stop now.... Doesn't mean any of the blame is founded or true but you can blame whom ever you want.

Originally Posted by my2rotties

Have a b=nice day.

Always do

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by superduperwesman

I'm confused what you learned that it's wrong? For lfs to bring in big fish?... you bought one so there is obviously a market of which you are a part?

And it's too late this time but you'll know for next time? But in the mean time everyday you will look into a tank at something that you're against. I just don't understand how you learned this valuable lesson and yet you continue to be a part of it everyday until the fish dies. And if that is going to be a short span you should give him to someone with a bigger tank or put him out of his misery b/c like you say below "I will not contribute to the unethical treatment of animals if possible"

And if he lives a long time why not get another one?? Oh right... quality of life. You would never want another one to have the bad life you're about to give this one???






Maybe not solely on size but in part.




This is not a good argument because good arguments are founded on something solid. Your argument is dynamic and changes and in doing so it's irrational, and illogical.



Yeah sounds really nice



Strange that you say this b/c from what I can tell you spent more time crying over Ed and giving a sob story than actually trying to get some insight as to why your 55 crashed... so get that one figured out yet?




I guess you need to define ethical?? Is it ethical to give animals a lower quality of life for your own personal enjoyment?? I'm pretty sure a tank isn't the best environment for a lot of fish that we keep, so how is it ethical to sacrifice their quality of life for your enjoyment? It's not ethical it's selfish but I'm ok with that because my quality of life is more important to me then there's but again you can't play both sides. "Agreed I'm selfish... but I won't mistreat animals" Technically you are... oh right... "I wontif possible." Unless you'd like to redefine mistreatment?



Sure you wont... ps your husband going for you is basically the same. No I don't wanna go out for pizza I'm feeling fat, but can you bring me back some




I make ignorant and dumb purchases as well, because I liked something and wanted it now, but I don't come home and say how there should be laws to stop me from being stupid

Oh ok... you're right you we're ignorant so it's ok... np. To bad we live in "such a throw out society" but lets let people use ignorance as an excuse. But then your mad because there is a market for the exact kind of ignorance you displayed.

But now your eyes are opened and you'll never do it again and you want to change the terrible things in the hobby... NO BIG FISH! NO BIG FISH! oh him he's a puffer... cool hey! He's miserable but I decided to keep him anyway. And if he's happy then why you hating on the lfs?? And saying there should be laws against big fish?




I think I do understand... that it's irrational




You can shop where ever you want... I just hope you don't find a reason to bash all the lfs and wonder how you'll stay in the hobby when you blame them for your bad choices and vow never to go back after one bad experience



Do you cry when you eat salmon?? Or is it ok for taste enjoyment and just not visual enjoyment? You're shortening the life of every fish you own and your ok with that? So you don't take the deaths that seriously... and I'm only making this point b/c again it seems like you try to play both sides of the fence and show how you care sooo much about your fish, but not enough to not support the hobby.

I know we can care about the fish we have but at the end of the day if we over emphasis how much we care and how serious the fishes deaths are than we shouldn't have them. At the end of the day we don't take a fishes death that seriously b/c we'll still sacrifice it for food, or for pleasure.

Please don't tell me that the food part is a need.




I guess I'm just trying to help you draw those lines because right now yours looks like this:

Wow...you seem to have taken this very personal. You own a fish shop by any chance?

[superduperwesman]

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

Wow...you seem to have taken this very personal. You own a fish shop by any chance?

Nope... I just get frustrated when people are irrational and have swing arguments.

The poster and this thread reminds me of a lady on the radio who "can not believe what Alberta has allowed the oil industry do to the environment!" All this she says as she flies over the oil sands in a plane that is fuel powered. The only reason she could even make such a statement, and the only reason she could see what she was seeing is b/c she was seeing it.

I just get really frustrated with people who are totally ridiculous. They talk and complain but in actuality the whole while they are only implicating themselves.

[Doug]

Sheez. This is a board for posting about our hobby, not an ethics board. Lighten up already.

[superduperwesman]

Originally Posted by Doug

Sheez. This is a board for posting about our hobby, not an ethics board. Lighten up already.

That's kinda my whole point at the end of the day they're just fish that we are supposed to enjoy. You do what you can to give them a good home but we can't pretend that we feel soooo bad and still keep the fish and keep buying more or I think you're in the wrong hobby.... which is the only thing that I said at the beginning besides #17 I thought it was a clown that ate puffers ahah, #29 lfs do take stuff back, #33 trying to keep the peace,

#37:

Originally Posted by superduperwesman

I still think you're in the wrong hobby based on a lot of your threads and posts

You can't play both sides or I don't know how you can be in the hobby.

I'm just saying she's not being rational and am pointing out contradictions in what she's saying and I think she agrees

Originally Posted by my2rotties

I did admit I contradicted myself on many matters. When you have mixed feelings about things, that does happen.

The problem with mixed feelings and contradictions is it makes half of what your saying garbage and steps on some people along the way.

Just pointing that out... it's ok to contradict yourself but if you point that out because you're confused your and ass and attacking people??

No worries... I'll just keep my frustrations to myself and quietly enjoy the positional yoyos