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#1
12-12-2008, 04:39 PM
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I did my research on puffers, but until you have a problem you don't really know what to look for. It is my fault for buying the fish BUT I asked many questions. Danny is a businessman he has bills to pay and told me what he could. He has hundreds of fish but he said he had this guy for at least two months. Having a fish that long I would think you would know a bit about him. I know a lot about this puffer and I have only had him three days...
My big deal with shopping there is just the ethics of bringing in mature reef fish from the wild. He has gorgous corals and beautiful fish... I just think when you are in the best interest of the animals you sell for a living, you would care for their well being. The 16" tang can hardly turn around in his tank. I was told the other one like him went to a 180g tank and that was enough for him... I look at my seven foot wide 260 and think that fish would suffer in what I have. If people, special order these fish that is one thing. For a fish to be stuffed in a little display until some person buys them is another... If I had the $300 for that fish that night I would have bought him because I feel sorry for him. I would have brought him home and felt sorry for that fish for all the days he managed to eek out a life in my little tank. When we build our tanks, we want joy out of them not sadness. I am glad I posted about it and I am glad others feel as I do. I do not blame Danny but he does have bills to pay... You open a store to make money, support your hobby and make a living out of doing what you love to do. There are other store I have been to where the people honestly care about the fish. They have nothing to lose because if that fish dies they are not out any money at all. My puffer will always be here, I know I could exchange him for other fish, but he is so happy here. To have a wild fish hunting and doing what he was doing on the reef, means I have succeeded in making him comfortable. He is not a big fish in my tank although he looked gigantic at Danny's. He fits right in, and now I know I need to buy mature tank raised fish that outgrew their owners smaller tanks. I would feel much better about that since the owners care for the fish, and they will be so happy to see them in my tank. I am a newbie BUT I do whatever needs to be done for my fish. The two clownfish made it through the night, so perhaps others are right... he won't eat another one. He is a very patient hunter though and he might still get his way. He is very fun to watch and I have been neglecting other things in my house gawking at him. I know I made the right choice even though I paid way too much for him. I know if I bought any other I would always think of him. 
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#2
12-12-2008, 05:52 PM
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Talking about ethics and bringing in large fish, you would be surprised how often retailers receive fish they didn't order. Retailers usually have to order direct rather than through wholesalers to compete with competitors and get a better variety of stock. The problems associated are usually related to poor communication capabilities. For example, sometimes you order a "large" tang and you'll get a 6" tang, another time you'll get a 16" tang. And sometime you'll get something you didn't even order and probably never would. There simply just isn't as much control as some might think or hope for.
Unfortunately it's more complicated than just blaming retailers, in the end we the hobbyists are to blame.
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#3
12-12-2008, 06:04 PM
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I still think you're in the wrong hobby based on a lot of your threads and posts
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#4
12-12-2008, 06:27 PM
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I got into the hobby since my foxface and his tank were left in the house by the previous owners.
I feel that I am in the right hobby and any fish that lives in my tank (unless you are clownfish), will have the very best of everything. Just because I chose to pursue this hobby further does not mean I condone suffering and depletion of the reefs due to poor ethics. Large fish should not be allowed to be caught as they are future generations that will breed and provide more fish for reefs and hobbists alike. Large fish have lived long enough to be fit and healthy, they deserve a chance. If we take these fish away from reefs the weaker fish will breed and weaken the future genrations. Have you not seen what has happened to the Cheetah in Africa? I have hiked the Bow and Elbow river a million times and seen fish and wildlife monitering fishermen to make sure the small fish are not being kept so they could contribute to a new generation of fish... why is there no laws for reef fish? The larger fish have reproduced and finished the circle of life already. Yes I am contradicting what I am saying by that statement, but mature river fish will not be put into tanks for the rest of their lives. If stores had ethics and I am not saying most do not, they would not want to buy large mature fish. If the demand for these fish was not there, nobody would be catching them, would they? The way they get caught is deporable and at least I am now aware of it, and want to see changes. It does not mean that I hate the hobby. It means that if people are aware and care, maybe we can make a difference in how things are done. Look at the shark fin industry? It makes me sick and something needs to be done. If governments did something about it, maybe change would happen. If enough people speak out maybe it would happen. If we comply no better comes of it... Because I am a newbie I make a point to ask questions to to others with knowledge and experience. Even if those questions are contraversal in nature. I believe we must speak for those that cannot speak for themselves. Just because my feelings may be different to others opinions, does not mean I would push my views onto them. However I will always ask the questions since they need to be asked. I love this hobby and love the people I have met on these forums. I am a newbie but that does not mean I am not entitled to have my own views and opinions. I have no hard feeling for being called out on this matter since rebuttal teaches all parties different views and ways of thinking. Quote:
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#5
12-12-2008, 07:04 PM
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Doesn't mean you have to agree, or that you have to leave the hobby, it just means that in my mind a lot of your comments don't exactly mesh with the hobby. I just don't understand how you enjoy the hobby with all these internal conflicts/struggles you seem to be having. Fish die... but you seem to take it hard, or you did with Eddy, but it's going to happen again. Are you going to get a memorial tattoo for every time?? Your taking fish that are from the huge ocean and shoving them in a little glass box for your own personal enjoyment... the hobby is one that sources from selfishness I guess everyone has different lines for how selfish we can be but it seems like your trying to play both sides. "I don't think large fish should be caught there should be laws but... I have a big puffer in my tank that's "so special" in part because of his size ... but I saved him from the tiny store tank" "Take him back"... "What? Never... why so some else can buy him? I wont make them suffer by making such a ridiculous purchase." Your encouraging a market that you supposedly don't like by keeping a big fish... take it back and let the guy sit on it if it's so unethical... if someone else buys it at least your conscience can be clear. Oh wait... now he's not that big for your tank now... well neither are some of these other fish your trying to make laws about when they're in other peoples tanks. But right now all I hear is you complaining about a problem that your currently contributing to. Your enormous posts simplified are you battling between your selfishness and your guilt. Find your line quickly or pretty soon vendors wont be selling you the fish you want b/c ur bashing them afterward... even though you'd do it all over. Good thing I'm not a lfs owner cause I'd reserve the right to refuse you business, but $20 says you'll be back to a lfs before the months end. Last edited by superduperwesman; 12-12-2008 at 07:08 PM.
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#6
12-12-2008, 08:10 PM
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We all learn from our mistakes and grow from them. I didn't pick my puffer due to his size, but his health and movement. I love a good arguement so keep it coming. I am not on any high horse, but now know what I know. My puffer is not special due to his size, he is special because he is an awesome fish. I did take Ed very hard since he is the reason I went to bigger and better. I wanted that fish to have a big tank and room to swim. When I moved into this house I almost killed him half a dozen times due to my lack of knowledge. It is a shame I finally am here with this tank which was for him, and he died three days short of making it into it. I have a memorial tattoo for my Rottweilers, but have not even considered a fish. Maybe I will get a reef done on my back some day, thanks for an awesome idea. I appreciate it. It would be spectacular to say the least.
 We live in a throw away society and always just "get another one". Perhaps if we think about why things happen and don't just get something to replace another we would be in a much better place with this world. Yes I am selfish for being in this hobby, yes I want a reef in this house. However I will not contribute to the unethical treatment of animals if possible. I am not perfect by all means but I want to always better myself by lessons I have learned. Of course I will be back to a LFS, just not that one. I unknowingly bought a fish that was larger because he was caught as an older fish. I did not even consider it until I saw him hunting like a wild animal hunts. My bad, not the puffer's. Whats done is done... It happened for a reason, and I learned a big lesson for it. I won't bring him back to the store now since I picked him and will deal with it. Just because I am a retard does not mean the fish should suffer any more stress by being brought back to the store. He is not a piece of clothing, he is a living creature. You can just bet that I won't do it again. Any large mature fish will be a captive raised fish that outgrew his owner's tank. You can bet on it. My next puffer is exactly that, so I learned and did something with my new knowledge on my mistake. I won't be buying any more clownfish, at least not these little false percs. That would be even more selfish on my behalf in the end. I am rehoming them soon. My refugium will be set up tonight and I will go snorkling to catch them and keep them safe until homes will be found. If I get another clownfish you can bet I will be asking what kind I should look into and if they will be safe against my hungry piglet. I do think you fail to understand my point and that is alright by me. It is sometimes hard to convey a message when expression cannot be seen and written word is only there to speak on one's behalf. I am a decent person that is not staring down at anybody, I just don't know better in many aspects of this hobby. As a consumer I have the option to shop where I want to shop. If one place does not work for me, I will go to another. At the end of the day it is me whom has to live with myself. I do take the deaths of my fish seriously because it is my responsibility to keep the safe and healthy. When they die of old age it is one thing, but when they die due to the lack of my knowledge it is my fault. I knew I would open up a can of worms when I started these two different topics, but debating and education in the debate is the best knowledge anyone can glean in life. At least I know I should not feel so badly about certain issues and if I did not bring these topics forward I would be beating myself over it. At least I can relax and enjoy my hobby but still have lines drawn for my own personal ethics on what I think is right. Does not mean everyone needs to do what I do, but at least I feel I made a difference in my world. Quote:
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#7
12-12-2008, 10:00 PM
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And it's too late this time but you'll know for next time? But in the mean time everyday you will look into a tank at something that you're against. I just don't understand how you learned this valuable lesson and yet you continue to be a part of it everyday until the fish dies. And if that is going to be a short span you should give him to someone with a bigger tank or put him out of his misery b/c like you say below "I will not contribute to the unethical treatment of animals if possible" And if he lives a long time why not get another one?? Oh right... quality of life. You would never want another one to have the bad life you're about to give this one??? Quote:
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Oh ok... you're right you we're ignorant so it's ok... np. To bad we live in "such a throw out society" but lets let people use ignorance as an excuse. But then your mad because there is a market for the exact kind of ignorance you displayed. But now your eyes are opened and you'll never do it again and you want to change the terrible things in the hobby... NO BIG FISH! NO BIG FISH! oh him he's a puffer... cool hey! He's miserable but I decided to keep him anyway. And if he's happy then why you hating on the lfs?? And saying there should be laws against big fish? Quote:
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I know we can care about the fish we have but at the end of the day if we over emphasis how much we care and how serious the fishes deaths are than we shouldn't have them. At the end of the day we don't take a fishes death that seriously b/c we'll still sacrifice it for food, or for pleasure. Please don't tell me that the food part is a need. Quote:
I guess I'm just trying to help you draw those lines because right now yours looks like this:  Last edited by superduperwesman; 12-12-2008 at 10:15 PM.
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#8
12-12-2008, 06:08 PM
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Well he said he paid way more for the bigger fish because only one fish would fit in the styrofoam crates they ship in. So I figured he had ordered the larger fish since he had to pay more to ship them. That is according to what he said.
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#9
12-12-2008, 07:12 PM
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#10
12-12-2008, 07:23 PM
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I agree with Wes and I stand by my previous statement that we hobbyists are to blame.
If you're against bringing in large fish or certain species of fish, despite what you might think, buying them doesn't help the situation. You're only supporting the exact cause you're against. In order to make a difference you should not purchase the fish you're against bringing in. That way the retailer is more likely to sit on the fish and yes it might die but the retailer will loose money and might take further efforts to avoid bringing in the same fish. By purchasing the fish you may think you're helping but you're not, the retailer now thinks that the fish sold and he could sell another. Simple supply and demand, the theory of any business.
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