FS Clarion Angelfish - One of two in Canada

Originally Posted by UnderWorldAquatics

As someone mentioned these fish use to be more abundant, They were still expensive, but not to the same degree... I brought in a couple of them years ago... I think a more acurate statement would be that your specimin is one of 2 "recently" imported into Canada. They have been in Canada for years... not a common species, but they are around....
pretty fish!

Ive been in the industry awhile.... I stand by this post....
Cheers!

[PHCorrect]

Chin

I think you are good person and by no means did I intend a personal attack to underworldaquatics. I was just defending a statement that was basically saying I was a liar. Now that is where the personal attack took place. He does say "years ago" and I was saying if it was less than 10 or so then they were probably brought in illegally. And it would be doubtful if any were still alive. I also suggested that it would be worthwhile seeing some of the ones that are in Canada. When I see this, I will stand corrected and full apologies will be given.

If people read the Clarion thread on ReefCentral they will see all kinds of information on the illegal collection and importation of this species and others.

Illegal collection is just plain wrong and the time frame underwater brought them in suggests his were illegal when compared with the information from Cortez Marine (Steve) who is the person who holds the Mexican passport and legally collected and distributed this recent batch of Clarions.

Originally Posted by Chin_Lee

There is a big difference between a personal attack and a debate. Your post was nothing more than a personal attack and you did not debate anything.


This tone and statement is debatable material; your deleted post was not.


Free speech is a right and is very much encouraged. Because this is a privately owned board, when you signed up and agree to be a member on this board, you have also agreed to the member agreement within which also has a set of rules. If you now disagree with the member agreement, please send me a PM to discuss the status of your membership.

[Chin_Lee]

The legality on previously imported Clarions would be a great debate and a great debate is set by the tone, content, knowledge and appropriate reference of the material. When a contradiction or disagreement on a debatable topic is produced, request for more information or produce more information to reinforce your side; but a disagreement does not make either side a liar.
Most if not all of us will agree that illegal collection is wrong. Fortunately for the customs officers who enforce these regulations, these cases are very easy to convict on. By simple possession and the prerequisite of declaration of the species (which is often false if illegally collected) makes it very easy to show mens rea (intent) to import illegally caught species. The unfortunate part is the ratio of customs officers to shipments; they just can't physically inspect everything that goes through. If they are required to inspect ALL shipments that go through, we will never get any of our livestock alive. Another factor against the customs officers is knowledge; very little number of them have good knowledge on the different species of fish, birds, reptiles, or mammals by plain visual inspections.
I'm not familiar with importation laws but the statute of limitations on summary conviction offences are 6 months and there is no limitations on indictable offences.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Just curious but what proof are you offering that these are legally caught? I only ask because I know for a FACT that there are more in Canada (Toronto) (Maybe illegally, I have no idea but they were brought up from the US last year) and Im just curious how you would distinguish yours from the two I know live in T.O.

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

Just curious but what proof are you offering that these are legally caught? I only ask because I know for a FACT that there are more in Canada (Toronto) (Maybe illegally, I have no idea but they were brought up from the US last year) and Im just curious how you would distinguish yours from the two I know live in T.O.

this post strikes a chord with me...it brings up points that come to mind from my post that was deleted(not because of content but because of relativity after the post it was a reply to was deleted...) Im assuming that PHCorrect's statements make the assumption that only fish recieved directly thru this Mexican exporter are obtained illegally...???This is light years from the truth!!!
also I was not trying to call you a liar, but I will point out that your talking alot about something you very obviously dont know alot about. Further based on the life expectancy of Large Angels I would be dissapointed if the ones I imported were not still alive...
Heres a scenerio... Mexican exporter ships out 50 legally caught Clarion Angels, 20 get disspursed to 5 large LA wholesalers, 10 to 3 Flordia wholesalers, 10 to 5 Japan wholesalers, and 5 to 3 UK wholesalers, and 5 to 2 Australian wholesalers.So now with some basic math... you can clearly see that I can now leagally import a Clarion Angel from one of 18 places from around the world....And since its a desirable fish... how bout the Clarion that went from Mexico to LA, once in LA it was sent to a networking wholesaler in Flordia, the customer the fish was broght in for got divorced and bailed on his order, so the Clarion was up for sale again and Jim in winnipeg heard about it and ordered it from Flordia....Jim is now admiring his beautiful Clarion Angel that he aquired legally, untill someone starts saying things they know little about, Jim is annoyed! I would be too! Anyways... Ive brought in a few Clarion Angels over the years and they were imported legally. Please have a full understanding of what your talking about before insinuating illegal activity...it ****es people off to say the least....
Cheers!

[mwafler]

Marginaly Pointless Internet Argument!

Originally Posted by mwafler

Marginaly Pointless Internet Argument!

Next time someone publicly insinuates that your ingauged in illegal business dealings that are punishable by huge fines and jail time, and you defend the insinuations.... Ill remember to crack a snide remark your way......
thanks for being an internet hero!

[Renegade]

any chance we can see a BIG picture of this angels, your little one does not do it justice!

Kyle

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by UnderWorldAquatics

this post strikes a chord with me...it brings up points that come to mind from my post that was deleted(not because of content but because of relativity after the post it was a reply to was deleted...) Im assuming that PHCorrect's statements make the assumption that only fish recieved directly thru this Mexican exporter are obtained illegally...???This is light years from the truth!!!
also I was not trying to call you a liar, but I will point out that your talking alot about something you very obviously dont know alot about. Further based on the life expectancy of Large Angels I would be dissapointed if the ones I imported were not still alive...
Heres a scenerio... Mexican exporter ships out 50 legally caught Clarion Angels, 20 get disspursed to 5 large LA wholesalers, 10 to 3 Flordia wholesalers, 10 to 5 Japan wholesalers, and 5 to 3 UK wholesalers, and 5 to 2 Australian wholesalers.So now with some basic math... you can clearly see that I can now leagally import a Clarion Angel from one of 18 places from around the world....And since its a desirable fish... how bout the Clarion that went from Mexico to LA, once in LA it was sent to a networking wholesaler in Flordia, the customer the fish was broght in for got divorced and bailed on his order, so the Clarion was up for sale again and Jim in winnipeg heard about it and ordered it from Flordia....Jim is now admiring his beautiful Clarion Angel that he aquired legally, untill someone starts saying things they know little about, Jim is annoyed! I would be too! Anyways... Ive brought in a few Clarion Angels over the years and they were imported legally. Please have a full understanding of what your talking about before insinuating illegal activity...it ****es people off to say the least....
Cheers!

Im not too sure what your getting at or what "****ed you off" so much? I have not even made a single comment directed towards you.

I simply asked PH correct how one would know if they are legal or not. I think you are basically saying that its an insult to ask him for proof but why not?

Im honestly not interested in buying them anyways but I am curious since its a big debate about illegal and legal caught fish...So how do you KNOW this is legal? Most LFS do their best to only buy from reputable suppliers but even the wholesalers don't always know whats going on overseas. I have talked the LFS I shop at all the time and they admitted that they thought the Copperbands they receive are cyanide caught even though they are told that is not the case.

Your reading into my post WAY too much.

The only reason Im curious about this at all is that it was stated that this may be one of two in Canada. My father and stepmother have 2. Honestly I have no idea if they are legal or illegal but I do know my father would not knowingly buy an illegal fish. He does employ a aquarium service company in Toronto that set up his 600G tank and does all the maintenance for him and also bought the fish...so maybe illegally? I have no idea but I was just asking about what would make this one for sale any different from the 2 he has?

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

Im not too sure what your getting at or what "****ed you off" so much? I have not even made a single comment directed towards you.

Sorry, "strikes a chord with me" wasnt meant to insinuate that I have any problem with your post, it only meant that it made me think about posts that have been made, I think your post was a good one with good points! I only have a problem with other posts that are made in ignorance and arrogance that also insinuate I am possibly engaging in or have engaged in illegal activity that is punishable by huge fines and jail time....one should know what they speak of before making such acusations! I think anyone that has an insinuating acusation thrown their way that could lead to a international criminal investigation has the right to be ****ed off! The old addage"one should think before one speaks" rings very true.....
Sorry again for any confusion GreenSpotPuffer
Cheers!