Advice on Nitrate/Phosphate problems

[Reefer Rob]

Sand beds need to be cleaned?? The #1 rule of sand beds is... leave them alone. Let the critters do the work of stiring and cleaning. With enough current nothing will settle on them. Albert, I've read a lot of your posts, and I respect your opinions, but you need do need to chill a bit.

[albert_dao]

Hmmm? My apologies, I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I also dislike being taken for an idiot.

Anyway, you are 100% correct, but the context is wrong. DSB's should not be disturbed and that assumes that the user has access to real live sand with real sand dwelling organisms:

- Worms from your live rock are not good enough. They are not true sand dwelling organisms and will not overturn the top layers of your sand. That's why the tracks you see in your sand now are the same tracks you're going to see three days, four weeks, six months from now. At this rate, the removal of detritus is a losing battle and the sand WILL reach critical mass and crash your system. I don't know about the rest of Canada, but no one here brings in live sand. It's not profitable and hard to maintain properly in a retail environment without dedicated holding tanks.

- Non-DSB sandbeds do not develope the type of positive anaerobic activity that people are aiming for. They just collect detritus. Again, the above point applies.

- The only form in which I could possibly justify sand is if a person absolutely cannot stand the look of bare bottom. In that case, a thin layer of sand (less than 0.5") is acceptable as long as it's vacuumed regularily (at least once a week) and replaced every six months.

I have a lot of strong opinions, not because I'm belligerant, but because I have accumulated experience and it does me well to pass on that knowledge.

[medican]

Thanks for clearing that up........

[albert_dao]

1. when you clean your sand bed you release a bunch of the stuff we try to get rid of in our tanks. The sand bed has its purpose and one of those is to filter that stuff. we keep the small critters there to clean the sand bed to keep it in check. When you change from a sand bed to a BB the release of nitrates is huge. No O2=denitrifying bacteria....but I'm sure you know that.

That's the thing, you DON'T GET THESE CRITTERS! Access to animals like burrowing crustaceans and worms is rather... nonexistant in Alberta, probably all of Canada. Hell, I've never seen them for sale in the states, only bristleworm packages. Again, unless you have access to proper live sand to top off a DSB, you're pretty much setting up a time bomb.

2. If your telling your customers to clean there sand bed, no wonder there tanks don’t thrive. So if you leave it alone like your supposed to, cleaning takes less time unless you like to look at all the crap on the bottom(until it grows over)

1. I don't start my customers with sand. I haven't in almost two years now. If they have sand, it's either because they started under someone else's guidance or they couldn't stand the look of BB. In the latter case, I recommend a super thin sandbed.

2. Anyone who has approached me with problems generally DID NOT touch their sand bed. In those instances, removal of the sandbed WAS the solution. I can't even count the number of times I've heard someone say to me "I'm never going back to sand".

3. As I've insinuated in my other comments, leaving your sandbed alone is NOT a viable option for long term survival of a reef tank. What if you need to move your rock to catch a fish or pick up a piece of coral that's fallen behind your tank? Do you risk crashing your tank each time that happens? I don't think most of us get into this hobby because we need to add another aspect to our gambling addictions.

Did you just claim to have the largest salt water customer base??????
Now you run a good shop but I think you’re a little full of yourself

I knew I was going to get grilled for that one, but what's done is done. I apologize for the remark. But like I've said before, it's in my best interest to keep people in the hobby. I'm not spewing misinformation, nor am I being unreasonable. My explanations were objective and I did provide a counterpoint (thin sandbed).

And yes, I do have the largest SW customer base in Calgary. I don't think anyone is going to deny that.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Reefer Rob

Sand beds need to be cleaned?? The #1 rule of sand beds is... leave them alone. Let the critters do the work of stiring and cleaning. With enough current nothing will settle on them. Albert, I've read a lot of your posts, and I respect your opinions, but you need do need to chill a bit.

If I may use your post as a quote.

Where does the detritus go in an aquarium with a sandbed. I have had some very nice tanks with dsb,s but never long enough to qualify an answer for long term use. I now run bare and the amout of detritus build up is unbelievable, as many that have gone that route have suggested.

Most of bare bottomed tanks run more current than dsb tanks, so keeping it in suspension is not the question. I have had near everything available to "keep the sand clean", in some of my tanks. I never did then nor do I now understand how they keep the bed clean. Even believe even Ron suggested they have a limited life and should be partially removed & replaced at times, the same as our live rock.

I disagree that sandbeds are more work, if anything they are less work. What they are, is more $$$$$$$$, both for the sand & the critters needed to "keep them clean". My bare bottomed tank andmost others I know, need detrius siphoning nearly every water change, something I never did with a dsb.

I did like the look of my dsb,s despite their taking up of 4 inches of my tank and I liked many of the creatures I kept to clean it. But when I see the crap that comes from my tank & some of my older rock now, I just shake my head thinking of where it all went before.

[Dave C]

Having said all of that, I did some followup reading on RC and decided to buy some starboard and go bb on the 225g tank. I just know that watching the sand load up with crap will drive me nuts in the long run. This way I'll have the 65g tank with sand and the 225g without and I'll be able to make a educated comparison. Funny enough, the cost of the starboard including shipping & exchange was almost exactly what I was going to spend on the sand.

[Flusher]

Originally Posted by Doug

But when I see the crap that comes from my tank & some of my older rock now, I just shake my head thinking of where it all went before.

Doesn't it just dissolve into the water column, then gets removed by water changes and skimmers? That was always my understanding, coming from my freshwater experiences (minus the skimmer part, of course). Once I got into planted tanks, I quit siphoning the substrate completely. I never had a problem.

My nano tank has been running for a year with a 1.5 - 2" sand bed that I've never siphoned. I've never had nitrates register yet. Granted, a year isn't a long time, and such a small tank makes it easy to do weekly 15% water changes (that's total volume, not actual volume after accounting for whatever is taking up room in the tank). Also, I quite like the look of the colourful layers in the substrate. I guess this is the crap that drives some people nuts.

At any rate, with my new 24 G tank almost set up, I've decided to go with under 1" of fresh aragonite in all three of my tanks. Hopefully nassarius snails will do a sufficient job rooting through the substrate.
________
Ipad cases

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Flusher

Doesn't it just dissolve into the water column, then gets removed by water changes and skimmers? That was always my understanding, coming from my freshwater experiences (minus the skimmer part, of course). Once I got into planted tanks, I quit siphoning the substrate completely. I never had a problem.

Its the detritus that settles and build in piles where the current cant keep it suspended. I would say the organics would be in the water and removed by skimming ,{which also removes visable detritus}, and water changes.

My nano tank has been running for a year with a 1.5 - 2" sand bed that I've never siphoned. I've never had nitrates register yet.

I never had a nitrate problem with a dsb, as its excellent at denitrification. Its the build up of phosphates in the sandbed, as in detritus piles in barebottem, or in the sumps or in partical filters, like filter wool or the socks used now. Thats why they need cleaning on a regular basis.

It should also be noted, although I run bare now, {sounded funny}, I still see nothing wrong with running a shallow or dsb if one wishes. Its just that they also require maintance to keep them functioning correctly and not just a bunch of costly items from an lfs.

[reeferaddict]

Here's how I keep my DSB fresh.... Engineer Goby, Brittle Stars, Sand Sifting stars, Sand sifting snails and about 30 or 40 Cerith snails... I have no phosphates... nitrates down to <10ppm with the help of my biodenitrator, and not a spec of algae to be seen anymore... Christy will attest to that... Corraline is growing almost TOO much... and I finally have good polyp extension AND growth... And I feed what most of you would deem as too much... my fish are fat and healthy... Oh and did I mention that I'm getting some of the most spectacular colours I have seen?

DSB or BB is a difference in philosophy and approaches... there is no ONE way to do things in this hobby. Yes I would agree that DSB is more work and more $$$, but I love the look, and the animals that live in the bed... they make the whole ecosystem more interesting and like nature IMHO.

I am in the midst of setting up a 37g frag tank that will be BB just for the maintenance aspect, so it's not that I'm not open minded. Just a matter of preference IMO...

[Moogled]

If I were to reframe this "debate", I think most of us agree on this:

A DSB is indeed beneficial for the reef aquarium tank and has alot of perks. However, given the lack of resources in Calgary (Canada, even) to create such an environment, a barebottom tank seems like a much more sensible and practical choice.

Me and Albert don't disagree with the idea of a sandbed in itself, but rather we take into context what we have and don't have and then state our positions from there on.