where do you stand on saving our reefs??? serious questions for you to ponder on:)

[gobytron]

guys, there will be no reefs at all by 2050....maybe 2100 if we're lucky.

Reefers will play almost no part in it's demise and if every one of us (not just canreef, I mean all of us) stopped this hobby today it would not change a thing.

ideals are nice, and they look great on paper or here on the 'net but the facts are the facts so keep all this nonsense up if it helps you sleep at night.

Just enjoy it while you can, in your living room or otherwise.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/ar...ort-warns.html

Just one very small example of what I mean, lots more rsearch all the time painting more and more dire pictures...

or for those of you who dont like to click links...an excerpt from www.treehugger.com
First the news was that if we don't change our habits around fishing, all the world's fisheries will be wiped out by 2050. Now, experts guess that if we don't significantly change our interaction with the ocean, coral reefs will be all but wiped out by that same time. J.E.N. Veron, former chief scientist of the Australian Institute of Marine Science, writes that human pollution of the water, as well as human-generated carbon dioxide emissions which are causing ocean acidification and rising ocean temperatures are rapidly killing off corals. He notes that without a radical change in our behaviors and priorities, we will be left with a bleak future for the oceans, and consequently, ourselves.

[ScubaSteve]

Originally Posted by gobytron

guys, there will be no reefs at all by 2050....maybe 2100 if we're lucky.

Reefers will play almost no part in it's demise and if every one of us (not just canreef, I mean all of us) stopped this hobby today it would not change a thing.

ideals are nice, and they look great on paper or here on the 'net but the facts are the facts so keep all this nonsense up if it helps you sleep at night.

Just enjoy it while you can, in your living room or otherwise.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/ar...ort-warns.html

Just one very small example of what I mean, lots more rsearch all the time painting more and more dire pictures...

or for those of you who dont like to click links...an excerpt from www.treehugger.com
First the news was that if we don't change our habits around fishing, all the world's fisheries will be wiped out by 2050. Now, experts guess that if we don't significantly change our interaction with the ocean, coral reefs will be all but wiped out by that same time. J.E.N. Veron, former chief scientist of the Australian Institute of Marine Science, writes that human pollution of the water, as well as human-generated carbon dioxide emissions which are causing ocean acidification and rising ocean temperatures are rapidly killing off corals. He notes that without a radical change in our behaviors and priorities, we will be left with a bleak future for the oceans, and consequently, ourselves.

Ah yes, the good ol' alarmist articles. I have to ask: Have you actually read the original report that news article reports on (Reefs at Risk)? Or have you read more up to date "Reefs at Risk: Revisted? If you had, you'd know that the quotes in the news article are taken out of context. No where does the original document state that reefs will be obliterated by 2050, it only says that a greater percentage of reefs will be subjected to increased threat levels by 2050. Threats being: environmental pressures that can destabilize a reef system, not 'holy freaking crap the world is coming to an end'. And the document uses environmental models that are, in their best possible use, a shot in the dark (the atmospheric CO2 model they used has been criticized my many).

The original document is a review of current threat levels, identifies possible threats and addresses socio-economical impacts, and it should be taken as such. It is an excellent review and makes a strong argument for not f-ing up our reefs. They do provide a forecast of reef pressures but their forecasting methods are far from being robust. Here in Vancouver the average daily temperature over the month of July has gone up by 0.2C per day... so using their forecast method Vancouver, by the time next year, will be a balmy 92C. Gonna have a sweet suntan. The original document also does not account for externalities, natural weather patterns (which caused the major 1998 bleaching event that skewed their results), or take into account natural reef resilience.

Trying being less neative and try looking for positive news. Like how there there has been no significant change in the great barrier reef over 13 years or that, despite poor ocean conditions and global warming, reefs are sprinting (in geological terms) toward the poles. Heck, the last one is a result of global warming.

None of this says that we aren't causing damage to our reefs and that we shouldn't be doing things better but, in response to this...

Originally Posted by gobytron

ideals are nice, and they look great on paper or here on the 'net but the facts are the facts so keep all this nonsense up if it helps you sleep at night.

You might want to brush up on your facts before calling someone else 'nonsense' for asking some honest questions (or you can ignore them... you know, whatever helps you sleep at night). Knock off with the negative posts.


Sorry for the diatribe, Denny! Let's get back to the OP and have some good discussions!

[Zoaelite]

Very well put as always Kevin, it's amazing how the "Facts" of a scientific article can be interpreted in which ever way the reader desires.

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by ScubaSteve

Sorry for the diatribe, Denny! Let's get back to the OP and have some good discussions!

hey thats the idea is to here both sides of the story and get opinions from everyone after all an opinion in a room to your self is just an opinion now speak that opinion out loud loud in a crowd then you almost always will have a discussion /debate and communication is where the learning begins

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by zoaElite

Very well put as always Kevin, it's amazing how the "Facts" of a scientific article can be interpreted in which ever way the reader desires.

agreed 100%...eyes of the beholder

[kien]

Gobytron is completely wrong. Seriously, the reef isn't going to disappear in 2050. The world is going to end next year so we really only have 1 year left to enjoy the reefs.

[ScubaSteve]

Originally Posted by kien

Gobytron is completely wrong. Seriously, the reef isn't going to disappear in 2050. The world is going to end next year so we really only have 1 year left to enjoy the reefs.

Are we talkin' zombie apocalypse or planet implosion?

Suddenly I don't feel so crazy for hoarding SPAM cans and cheetos packets for the past few years. Jokes on you guys. When you're eating brains, I'll be eating in style.

[kien]

Originally Posted by ScubaSteve

Are we talkin' zombie apocalypse or planet implosion?

Suddenly I don't feel so crazy for hoarding SPAM cans and cheetos packets for the past few years. Jokes on you guys. When you're eating brains, I'll be eating in style.

Sorry, the Mayans were not specific about how the world would end, just that it would!

I thought spam was made of brains?? Or am I confusing it with Soylent Green again?

[Lampshade]

Keins right, December 2012 we all die, Myan calender ends, and more importantly, they even made movies about it. There will be zombies, earthquakes, wars, God's, Son's of God's, everything. But anyways.. here's my answers.

1)so what do you think about our hobby and its impact on the natural reefs?

-the awareness this hobby has created has far surpassed any devestation people claim we have on the reefs. I don't think they should open up Hawaii for free picking, but that goes into that part of the awareness this hobby has created.

2)do you buy wildcaught if yes does it bother you?

-I think everyone does unless you own a clownfish tank? Doesn't bother me that they are wildacught, If someone could breed tangs cheaper than wildcaught i'd be up for buying them, but until that happpens i think wildcaught is the only economical answer for now.

3)what do you think we as hobbysts can do to protect or help our reefs??

-Frags help out, not buying cyonide caught fish would too. I think we all try to avoid that anyways because of the high death rate.

4)do you see the hobby coming to an end??

-If anything the opposite. but i'm sure people said that about their pet boa's too.

5)do you support captive breeding??

-defintily, when's the last time you bought a wild budgie/cockatiel.

6)what do you think the impact would be to the economy if collecting/harvesting were to stop??

-Our economy? not much, I'm sure we would all find other things to waste money on. I might even get a real suntan instead of a 15K MH tan.

I'm sure there's some villages in indonesia/fiji that would have a rough few years ahead thoguh.

7)do you think blackmarket or underground coral smuggling exist in our country??
-Yes, both accidently (Coral from USA) and planned. I think that if someone was going to set up a very large tank with a very large amount of money, there would be options that may be available. Do i think people dress in all black ninja suits collecting coral at midnight to sell in back alley's? no

8)do you think collecting and harvesting practises could be better?
-Cyonide is one method that most people know about. It's like dropping a knockout bomb on the reef, without regulating the knockout... most fish don't live. Most of our coral/fish is collected from some farily poor contries from some fairly poor villages. I'm sure these fish have been through a lot more than we could imagine. They could be better, but any wild caught animal would probably be better off in the wild, right?

9)would you not buy something because it came from the wild??
-I think we all have wild caught items in our tanks.

10)do you think the impact has bettered in the last ten yrs or gotten worse??
-Better, the impact of home aquariums is small, if people want to balme us for ruining the reefs that's ok with me if it gets people helping to save them.

11)do you believe there should be animal laws regarding fish and tank sizes??
-limits on tank sizes? no, generally if you own a 500+gallon reef, you are not going to bomb it and have everyting die. 50 people with 10 gallon reefs bomb them far more often.

If the question is fish size vs. tank size, ie. Tang Police. I don't think so, all these fish come from open ocean. anything under a 50000 gallon tank is technically "too small".

12)do you feel guilty for caging these little creatures?

-No, I'm not caging them, i'm saving them from a reef full of predators.......

13)whats your thoughts on species that dont do well and lfs bringing them in reguarily

Sea Hares, everybody thinks they are miracle creatures, they die. Lots. i'm sure there's more rare ones out there that are the same(Batfish, moorish idols, etc).

14)would you buy something smuggled or not supposed to be in our country??

-How good does it look? depends on why it's not supposed to be. If it's somthing that will take over local oceans, etc. then no. If it's endangered, no, i would not do that either. If someone missed out on making a few bucks off my purchase (I support LFS, there's many in between) then I'd have to see...(ever buy firecrackers? Think most peopell you buy frags from clain it on income taxs?)

15)would you be willing to give up this hobby if you knew it would save the reefs and oceans of the world?

If it would save them, yes. But honestly, I think it would do the opposite. myself, family and many people who come to see my tank had never really looked much at a reef tank before. Now that it's here, in only my small group of people, they have noticed how beautiful it is, and due to my constant talkig about it(obsesion :S) they know far more than they'd like to.