where do you stand on saving our reefs??? serious questions for you to ponder on:)

[reefwars]

so here it is the dreaded questions thats been popping up here alot this week and like it or not everyones got a thought or an opinion, so i thought id create a spot to come discuss,argue,agree and debate and if anything create knowlege so people can understand more the thoughts we all have and choose their own place to stand on the topics.

1)so what do you think about our hobby and its impact on the natural reefs?
2)do you buy wildcaught if yes does it bother you?
3)what do you think we as hobbysts can do to protect or help our reefs??
4)do you see the hobby coming to an end??
5)do you support captive breeding??
6)what do you think the impact would be to the economy if collecting/harvesting were to stop??
7)do you think blackmarket or underground coral smuggling exist in our country??
8)do you think collecting and harvesting practises could be better?
9)would you not buy something because it came from the wild??
10)do you think the impact has bettered in the last ten yrs or gotten worse??
11)do you believe there should be animal laws regarding fish and tank sizes??
12)do you feel guilty for caging these little creatures?
13)whats your thoughts on species that dont do well and lfs bringing them in reguarily
14)would you buy something smuggled or not supposed to be in our country??
15)would you be willing to give up this hobby if you knew it would save the reefs and oceans of the world?


when answering please quote the question and then your response

id like to hear from every canreef member and find out where the majority stands

if there is a question youd like to see added to the list pls post it and i will add it to the list.

above all lets keep it civil and friendly

thanks

[CandyCane]

I learned a lot from the small post I did and the debates it brought up so here's some answers on my opinion and what I learned from others.


1)so what do you think about our hobby and its impact on the natural reefs?
I think people should be more aware of which corals and fish most likely shouldnt be in the stores or in our tanks do to the possibility of extinction or dificulty of care. If these kinds of things were more well known I'm sure our hobby could be benficial towards all natural reefs instead of negative


2)do you buy wildcaught if yes does it bother you?
I most likely have a wildcaught yellow stripe maroon clownfish and if I'd been aware in the beginning when he was purchased I would not have bought it. However now that I have one I got it a RBTA so it would feel more at home in my tank. I'm proud of the little guy he hosted the anemone in my hand as I put it into my tank for the first time.

3)what do you think we as hobbysts can do to protect or help our reefs??
Ask our lfs stores about how long of a trip the fish had to take to get there. By making sure we buy fish that have been traveling at most around 24hrs the majority shipped won't have such a high death rate.


4)do you see the hobby coming to an end??
I can see natural coral reefs possibly coming to an end because of global warming, oil spills, and even things like sunscreen. I'm sure our hobby will stick around long after. Maybe one day we can contribute to restoring a coral reef.

5)do you support captive breeding??
Ya for sure! It furthers our knowledge of what each species needs in our tanks and diminishes the need for wildcaught fish


6)what do you think the impact would be to the economy if collecting/harvesting were to stop??
Many countries would get hit hard econimically and suffer, it would be a very difficult decision to just completely stop.

7)do you think blackmarket or underground coral smuggling exist in our country??
Ya for sure it does.


8)do you think collecting and harvesting practises could be better?
A complete ban of chemical fish harvesting and more protection and regulation laws on the collection of critters and live rock would be a great improvement

9)would you not buy something because it came from the wild??
There is a high possibility that I wouldn't


10)do you think the impact has bettered in the last ten yrs or gotten worse??
It has gotten much better

11)do you believe there should be animal laws regarding fish and tank sizes??
I think that would be impossible but I know lfs's could regulate their fish sales by asking the buyer more questions about their tanks so fish losses decline and to be sure the tank is the right size for the fish and correct dificulty.


12)do you feel guilty for caging these little creatures?
When I see a huge fish in a tiny tank that it can't even swim a full circle in I feel horrible for it. Or when the wrong fish are housed together to me is animal abuse

13)whats your thoughts on species that dont do well and lfs bringing them in reguarily
If a person really wants one and has done as much research as possible I believe they should have the right to order that single fish from an lfs but the lfs should not carry them regularly.


14)would you buy something smuggled or not supposed to be in our country??
No I would not

[turkleton]

1) What do you think about our hobby and its impact on the natural reefs?
I love this hobby. For me is a continual source of fascination and excitement and there is always something new to learn. I believe that at the moment the overall impact on natural reefs is negative, but still nothing when compared to many other factors including improperly controlled fisheries and commercial fishing practices, global warming and even just the pollution caused by every individual in any developed nation.

2) Do you buy wild caught if yes does it bother you?
Yes, since the variety of captive bred fish is still very small I don’t have much choice. No it does not bother me.

3) What do you think we as hobbyists can do to protect or help our reefs?
Raise awareness where possible; continue to educate ourselves about the livestock we keep and their status in the wild.

4) Do you see the hobby coming to an end?
Hopefully not. If anything we may get to the point where we are forced to rely solely on captive bred livestock, but I doubt it will end completely.

5) Do you support captive breeding?
Of course, it increases our knowledge of the animals we keep and reduces our impact on natural reefs.

6) What do you think the impact would be to the economy if collecting/harvesting were to stop?
The biggest impact would be seen at the collection/harvesting end the industry, where local economies benefit from the money brought in by sale of livestock. On the retail end, local businesses would suffer but ultimately the impact on the economy would be very minimal.

7) Do you think black-market or underground coral smuggling exist in our country?
Probably but I have never heard of it.

8) Do you think collecting and harvesting practices could be better?
Yes. Bans on cyanide and chemical fishing would be an improvement as would better regulation of how many of which species can be removed while maintaining sustainability.

9) Would you not buy something because it came from the wild?
I have no problems buying wild caught specimens as long as they appear to be in good health and I have done some research on their captive requirements.

10) Do you think the impact has bettered in the last ten years or gotten worse?
Still not fantastic, but much better.

11) Do you believe there should be animal laws regarding fish and tank sizes?
Absolutely not. It would be pretty much pointless since the logistics of enforcing such legislations are mind boggling. It would just end up wasting far too much time and money with no positive end result.

12) Do you feel guilty for caging these little creatures?
Only in situations where very large fish are kept in aquariums that are so small as noticeably hinder movement. If the livestock are in good health, are appropriately sized for the aquarium and the tank seems to be properly maintained then no, I do not feel guilty at all.

13) What are your thoughts on species that don’t do well and lfs bringing them in regularly?
If a species is known to do very poorly in captivity I don’t believe that they should be regularly stocked by a LFS. However if a person has done the research, can provide a suitable environment for the animal and the animal is not threatened in the wild then they should be available for special order.

14) Would you buy something smuggled or not supposed to be in our country?
This really depends on the animal in question, my own feelings and views regarding the animal and the reason(s) that it has been banned in my country. Under the perfect circumstances, heck yes.

[dsaundry]

Interesting topic, I won't answer each question but respond this way. I would like to believe that most people are in general responsible for their tanks etc. But are you comparing it on a Canadian/North American base or worldwide? After seeing some of the pictures in the asian markets, you know the majority seem to be in it for just the money, while I am sure this isn't the case for everybody, when you see pictures of Fish Street I am willing to bet the fish are not taken care of like you or I might do in our tanks. Does anybody know what the mortality rate is on fish? Wild caught or captive bred? I am sure if you asked a supplier and got an honest answer you all might be either pleasantly surprised or shocked at the answer to that question. There is always going to be the person{s} that don't care what the cost or the impact to the species, and will do and spend anything to get it. Just look at the number of sharks being killed and dumped back into the ocean minus their fins, or the casualties of driftnets..where do you draw the line? The scientists are already predicting a virtually lifeless ocean in the "NEAR" future. So what do you do? Stop the hobby? Will that fix the ocean? How about a worldwide ban on fishing and capturing fish from the ocean for ..say..50yrs and see how stocks replenish themselves.. How would that be enforced?? As long as there is a person{s} that is willing to bend the rules or break them there will always be horror stories when it comes to life on this planet. Maybe the question should be..Are you willing to give up this hobby if you knew it would save the reefs and oceans of the world? Would you give up eating seafood?? Tough freaking questions...

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by dsaundry

Are you willing to give up this hobby if you knew it would save the reefs and oceans of the world?

consider it added

[intarsiabox]

Originally Posted by reefwars

above all lets keep it civil and friendly

Screw you, Denny! (Just kidding!)

I'm sure lots of people have lots of opinions and maybe we can all learn something new from this post. I have a question to pose however not sure how to word it in a short manner. "Science" says our modern day coral reefs will be all but gone in 50 years, would this still be happening if reef keepers never existed? Would it even slow the process down? This is tricky because I'm asking for opinions based on opinions from special interest groups mostly.

[intarsiabox]

1)so what do you think about our hobby and its impact on the natural reefs?
Minimal, especially compared to others sources of negative reef impact. We're reef keeps, we know reef keepers it seems to us like there is a lot of people in this hobby. Really it's quite small compared to most other hobbies.

2)do you buy wildcaught if yes does it bother you?
I research a fish I want for compatibility and my ability to keep it healthy and when I see it available at a reputable store I get it. I don't ask if it's wild or not because the answer is usually wild.

3)what do you think we as hobbysts can do to protect or help our reefs??
Stop using laundry soap thats full of phosphates.

4)do you see the hobby coming to an end??
Nope.

5)do you support captive breeding??
Absolutely! But my reasons are somewhat selfish. Captive bred are usually hardier and have a much better survival rate so it costs less in the long run.

6)what do you think the impact would be to the economy if collecting/harvesting were to stop??
Here, very little. Small 3rd world island nations that rely on the reef trade for survival, huge!

7)do you think blackmarket or underground coral smuggling exist in our country??
Sure. If I lived in Hawaii I'd probably have a tank full of self caught livestock.

8)do you think collecting and harvesting practises could be better?
In some places sure, others places are well regulated and monitored.

9)would you not buy something because it came from the wild??
Nope

10)do you think the impact has bettered in the last ten yrs or gotten worse??
Better

11)do you believe there should be animal laws regarding fish and tank sizes??
Nope, just like there is no minimum yard size for dog owners.

12)do you feel guilty for caging these little creatures?
Only if I kill one.

13)whats your thoughts on species that dont do well and lfs bringing them in reguarily
This is the hobbiests fault. It is up to them to know the needs of an animal before buying. Lots of people can keep these animals successfully if they know how.

14)would you buy something smuggled or not supposed to be in our country??
If I knew I could properly care for it then yes

15)would you be willing to give up this hobby if you knew it would save the reefs and oceans of the world?
Not after I've already spent a fortune in this hobby.

[saltcreep]

This is a great thread and I feel that I will chime in with my thoughts. Just to give a little perspective, I am in the industry on the wholesale side. I have been through some of the trials and tribulations with respect to awareness and protection. There have been some major progress made since my early involvement. It needs to continue.

1)so what do you think about our hobby and its impact on the natural reefs?
-It's getting better, however there is still a long way to go. I don't feel that the impact is as large as some of the other major environmental concerns (deforestation, climate change, food fishery, etc), but there is still an impact, even with the removal of a single organism.

2)do you buy wildcaught if yes does it bother you?
-Sure do and will continue to do so.

3)what do you think we as hobbysts can do to protect or help our reefs??
- Be informed and vote with your wallet. That is the strongest statement you can make.

4)do you see the hobby coming to an end??
- No, however the hobby as you see it today may be radically different in the future. Environmental concerns will force changes to the industry in that the reefs will be seen as a precious resource. Some collection areas are beginning to clue in, but not quite enough yet.

5)do you support captive breeding??
- sure, why not. However, I will not support it to the point of excluding wild caught items. In some areas of the world, ornamental fish collecting is essentially the only industry available and it goes a long way to supporting villages.

6)what do you think the impact would be to the economy if collecting/harvesting were to stop??
- see six. This would be financially catastrophic to most of the collecting areas, especially at the local village level. Our economy would not suffer, but the degree to which the industry in Canada survives would be wholly dependant upon when such a ban were to be put in place. If it were sooner rather than later, the effects would be more severe. At present, there just isn't enough cultured product to support the industry as it is today.

7)do you think blackmarket or underground coral smuggling exist in our country??
- like it or not, it is alive and well. There aren't enough government resources to effectively oversee this industry. There never will be so it will continue.

8)do you think collecting and harvesting practises could be better?
- it can always be improved. There are still far too many areas and collectors that resort to improper collection methods. Again, government resources are tight in all areas so enforcement is at less than a bare minimum.

9)would you not buy something because it came from the wild??
- depends on what it is. If it's an item that should have never been collected, then never.

10)do you think the impact has bettered in the last ten yrs or gotten worse??
- the impact has lessened, especially with respect to coral and rock harvesting.

11)do you believe there should be animal laws regarding fish and tank sizes??
- never going to happen

12)do you feel guilty for caging these little creatures?
- only when I go diving.

13)whats your thoughts on species that dont do well and lfs bringing them in reguarily
- again vote with your wallet. If you don't buy that species or go further and don't support the LFS, they will eventually be forced to change.

14)would you buy something smuggled or not supposed to be in our country??
- knowingly...never

15)would you be willing to give up this hobby if you knew it would save the reefs and oceans of the world?
-I'd be also giving up my livelihood. Ending this industry would only have a negligible impact on the reefs. There are many things that can be done in a sustainable manner. It comes down to will. I still feel that change can be positively affected by the consumer. You have the final say.

[Bloodasp]

1)so what do you think about our hobby and its impact on the natural reefs?
It will impact it some way for sure. But in a way it somehow opens a lot of eyes to what is out there, the beauty of it, and how sensitive these ecosystems are to changes.

2)do you buy wildcaught if yes does it bother you?
Yes and no it does not bother me too much.

3)what do you think we as hobbysts can do to protect or help our reefs??
Educate yourself and share what you know.

4)do you see the hobby coming to an end??
No

5)do you support captive breeding??
Yes

6)what do you think the impact would be to the economy if collecting/harvesting were to stop??
Not much, too many resources abound that people can exploit that are worth more than the fish that can be collected.

7)do you think blackmarket or underground coral smuggling exist in our country??
Yes, there's smuggled stuff and blackmarket goods anywhere, i wouldn't be surprised if somebody somewhere is selling rare and exotic saltwater animals

8)do you think collecting and harvesting practises could be better?
Yes

9)would you not buy something because it came from the wild??
Yes

10)do you think the impact has bettered in the last ten yrs or gotten worse??
Same as far as I can tell

11)do you believe there should be animal laws regarding fish and tank sizes??
Fish-yes. Endangered species should be left to breed.
Tank size- no. The bigger the tank the better it is for the inhabitants.

12)do you feel guilty for caging these little creatures?
Not really

13)whats your thoughts on species that dont do well and lfs bringing them in reguarily
They should be more responsible for the creatures they bring in.

14)would you buy something smuggled or not supposed to be in our country??
No

15)would you be willing to give up this hobby if you knew it would save the reefs and oceans of the world?
How?

[ScubaSteve]

1)so what do you think about our hobby and its impact on the natural reefs?
It certainly has an effect on reef populations, especially if done incorrectly. If we were to practice responsible collecting, however, it is actually possible to have a positive effect on reef populations, species richness and biodiversity (read up on ecological disturbance theory if you're curious). Current practices, unfortunately, decimate reefs.

If we were to look at our hobby through another lens, it may have both positive and negative social impacts. Reefs are very much "out of sight, out of mind" for most people. If more people are exposed to the hobby (whether by involvement or simply being shown) and they get that hands-on experience, it becomes much more real for them and they are more aware, even if only a bit more. Movies like "Finding Nemo" have made reef ecosystems more of an social topic (more so for younger generations). I know many people who were interested to learn more about reefs after that movie... but I also know equally as many who are the "OMG Look at that cute little Nemo-fish!" (For those people I just wanna... ), which I believe actually gives the hobby a bad social image (case in point: designer clownfish).

2)do you buy wildcaught if yes does it bother you?
I try not to, unless something really epic comes up. 95% of my corals are from CanReef member frags. It does bother me when buying wild-caught.

3)what do you think we as hobbysts can do to protect or help our reefs??
Demand better collecting practices, encourage/demand mariculture and spread awareness to the uninitiated.

4)do you see the hobby coming to an end??
Certainly not but there are changes a comin'.


5)do you support captive breeding??
I have mixed feelings on this. I am 100% for captive breeding and believe it should be the way. HOWEVER, I'm not sure how I feel about "designer fish" like the ORA an Picasso clowns (though this isn't much different that guppy or dog breeding). I am DEFINITELY against those frigging Glo-fish that have been genetically modified to fluoresce.

6)what do you think the impact would be to the economy if collecting/harvesting were to stop??
Minimal. Marine trade is small beans compared to, well, pretty much every other industry. The aquarium industry would die, or take a major set-back.


7)do you think blackmarket or underground coral smuggling exist in our country??
Sure as heck it does. If our border was more open to the US so that we could get a hold of their livestock, it wouldn't be so bad. We lack the selection, diversity and quality of livestock (in very general terms) that the US does (though luckily we don't share the same stupidly inflated prices).

8)do you think collecting and harvesting practices could be better?
Certainly (as mentioned above). If we were to follow wild collection principles that we practice on land we could actually encourage species richness and diversity. Right now we collect in a manner similar to clear-cut logging. Clear-cutting is slowly giving way to more friendly logging practices where we selectively remove from very defined regions and alleviate species pressure.

9)would you not buy something because it came from the wild??
Possibly, would be situation dependent.

10)do you think the impact has bettered in the last ten yrs or gotten worse??
I previously thought it had gotten worse until I read a few recent studies (2008-2010) that showed collection-related damage has actually gone down but collection is becoming more widespread.. so I'm gonna give this a "no change" overall.

11)do you believe there should be animal laws regarding fish and tank sizes??
Like in terms of the "Tang Police"? No, there is no actual evidence as to what-species-needs-to-be-in-what-size-tank, it is all purely anecdotal (like people saying that betta splendis can be kept in minimal water, as small as a cup, because they are used to this in nature... which is BS). So other than assigning arbitrary numbers, this rule is mostly useless. For many species, like tangs, the instant you put them into a tank. it is not enough water volume. I have seen many 180+ gallon tanks so packed full of live rock and coral that that tang in there would have more swimming volume in my 40 gallon. So really what good is it saying that those tangs can only go into 180+ gallon tanks?

Now, I'm not saying we should be shoehorning big species into small tanks. The opposite. I think people just need to be more aware of the species needs and behaviour and make the right decision as to whether or not they are capable of providing appropriate care. Most people are not honest and knowledgeable enough to make the right choice, unfortunately

12)do you feel guilty for caging these little creatures?
Sometimes yes. For smaller species less so.

13)whats your thoughts on species that dont do well and lfs bringing them in regularly
I am a bit different than most people and I go to huge lengths to learn how to keep the difficult and not-understood species (currently working on a rare starfish). Now, I am not a publishing aquarist; my experiences will only be recorded anecdotal... but this is where this hobby has power over pure science studies: we have strength in numbers and hobby aquarists, like those here on CanReef, communicate far more regularly than scientists do (I'm a scientist, so I can say this with certainty).

Knowledge is incremental. Though for a while we may be unsuccessful at a certain species, enough us will start to have small successes that begin to build into a bigger and bigger knowledge-base and we will eventually be successful at a species. I can name TONS of species that we once said were impossible and people now keep them successfully (NPS is the current knowledge revolution happening). Now, if we could only pull our collective sh*t together, be supportive and discuss our past (though failed) experiences we could advance our knowledge of a species REALLY fast. Unfortunately this is not the case, especially around here, where if someone says "I want to try this hard species" or "I brought this home" they are lambasted, flamed, tarred-and-feathered and given another earful for good measure rather than someone saying "Well, you've bitten off more than you could chew on this one and you should be more responsible next time but here are my experiences or this is what I've heard".

Eventually, by better understanding the animals we keep and sharing those experiences, we could drastically reduce the number of fatalities.

Now, that being said, there are some species that simply cannot exist in small aquaria in the absence of their symbionts or preferred food source (or suitable substitute). These species should certainly be left alone. Critical reef species, like cleaner species, should be left on the reef and be aquacultured instead (if possible... gotta figure out HOW first).


14)would you buy something smuggled or not supposed to be in our country??
I unfortunately have to say yes, depending on what it was. Endangered? Definitely not. Super cool SPS frag from someones tank? Ya, probably.


15)would you be willing to give up this hobby if you knew it would save the reefs and oceans of the world?
No, because this hobby is teaching me how I can save the reefs and oceans. In about 3 years when I finish my PhD I am going to change careers and focus on reef restoration as a career... a task which I will be doing through aquaculture.