BioPellets with Vodka Dosing - Your Thoughts

[globaldesigns]

Originally Posted by Myka

What if you blow the powerheads at the rock? Any detritus come flying off there?

Nope very clean over all, of course a bit can come off, as sand and some debri can settle, but nothing much

Originally Posted by Myka

Why do you have ammonia and nitrite? What test kits do you use for each test?

I use ELOS, so I don't cheap out on the testing, that is important. And I bought new kits, just in case some were bad and no change in results.

Originally Posted by Myka

I notice you don't have readings for nitrate or phosphate. Provided the "big three" (and K imo) are in check, I have found that NO3 and PO4 are very good at browning out SPS. I find the Salifert kit for nitrate is sufficient and keeping nitrate below 5 ppm is essential for good SPS coloration although I find the best coloration when nitrate is undetectable with a Salifert kit. I use a Merck high sensitivity kit for phosphate as I find anything greater than 0.15 ppm in the water will cause SPS colors to diminish. You need a high sensitivity kit to read these low levels.

I will go buy the phosphate, and as stated I also ran out of nitrate, so need to order more. Haven't done phasphate for awhile, as I never had a problem, so just stopped buying it. ELOS can do both high and low sensitivity, they usually come able to do both.

Originally Posted by Myka

Excuse me, but I don't have to read the entire thread. Are you using any sort of phosphate absorbing media? I use GFO on any SPS tanks (and at different times in non-SPS tanks). I really find it makes a huge difference in SPS coloration whether phosphate is problematic or not. Lots of GFO, and little carbon imo. I find huge amounts of carbon will reduce polyp extension on SPS. I use carbon intermittently because of this (just a day or two per week). Some people have mixed reefs with chemically aggressive corals where limited carbon use isn't possible.

Nope, no phosphate media, not suppose to with Pellets or with Zeo, so I have never done so. I only use 1L of carbon (Kent Reef Carbon) in a reactor and change it out every month. Again, carbon is part of the Zeo method. 1L is below what my tank is needing, probably should have 1.5L for the water volume, but keeping it at 1L.

Originally Posted by Myka

Which brings up another point. Many corals are chemically aggressive; like leathers, GSP, Zoas, and Palys. The presence of these corals in an SPS system can and will diminish SPS coloration, polyp extension, and growth. Using carbon will help to absorb many chemicals released by corals, but that's a catch 22 as described above. Keeping away from some of the worst chemical fighters is a good plan, or remove them entirely.

I see many sps tanks with zoas, like what I have without issue. So not sure this is an issue. Not sure here.

Originally Posted by Myka

Personally, I would ditch the Biopellets (I'm not sold on their claims). I would run GFO in a reactor. Run carbon passively and intermittently if possible. Play around with the use of Zeolites instead of Biopellets, vodka, or any other "raw" carbon dosing. I'm a stickler for reef designed products. I find the use of "raw" chemicals (calcium, sodium bicarbonate, vodka, etc) to be far inferior to reef designed products. I'm a huge fan of balling salts, which are essentially super pure raw chemicals designed for reefs with some interesting chemical engineering and secret ingredients.

HTH.

I won't ditch the pellets, unlike most others, I have seen great results from them. Like no cyano, algae of any sort, before them I had lots. So they do work when used properly. Which is the problem, most reefers using pellets are using them incorrectly. I was one of them also, but now I can testify how to use, based on actually having instructions from manufacturer and actual documentation of other reefers. And I do think having the Zeolites with them are enhancing things, again I have no scientific evidence, but if I see it looking good, why remove. As per Tony/Delphinus, he regretted removing his, and saw things regress when he did.

Otherwise with calcium, magnesium, etc... I don't have anything automated and control this manually. I do have a daily regime of dosing and additions of supplements. Just did my tests, and can say all is perfect as usual.

I also looked around today and will make this claim. I was running my lights for 11 hours, now things have been really cut back for the past 2 weeks. I will now say I am seeing polyp extension of SPS that never had any. This is a good thing. Also these same frags/colonies are starting to show lightening in color, again not much yet, but I am noticing areas of change. The big thing for me is POLYP EXTENSION, I like this and tells me they are much happier.

So what I am saying is light is very important, and too much light probably isn't good either, which would be my case. I will post on this as the weeks/months progress.

Also water quality continues to look impicable. It is soooooo clear, and again no algae's. So this is why I have decided not to change things. So pellets and Zeolites will remain, until such time I see really bad things, I cannot justify removing them. Yes I am a big promoter of the BioPellets, but again they have always worked on their claims. "I have no algae and cyano", and I had alot... so how can I say they don't work, they do... I just want better coral color, that is my big problem I guess. But with the light changes over the past 2 weeks, I am seeing slow changes there now also.

The reason I was asking about Vodka dosing, was I thought it may assist in coloring up of SPS, I now realize this probably won't be the case. So I have now concluded to NOT dose vodka and keep on going on what I do already and NO changes will happen to my current setup.

Thanks for all the info everyone, please feel free to voice your opinions, I love to hear them. Even if I don't use them. But I do listen, believe me.

[globaldesigns]

I also want to comment on my sandbed. I don't clean it with a sand vacumm, and if I stirred it you could see alot of brown sludge come out of it.

I had one sand sifting star and some snails. The snails (i can't remember the species, but they have light brown on the shell with white and are sand sifters also). My thinking was that the sand may be releasing nitrates/phosphates/etc, so I had bought 4 more sand sifting stars last week. I also just bought 3 more today. So now have 8 sand sifting stars, with the snails and a sand sifting shrimp. It can't hurt!!!

Plus with all those stars my sand bed is looking nice and fluffy/puffy with them going in and out of it.

[kien]

The only thing that would bother me is the fact that I wouldn't know if one or the other method is working. Sure, both zeolites and pellets could be working, but because you run both there is truly no way of telling. It could be the zeolites stripping nutrients or it could be the pellets. In the end you don't know for sure, you just have to assume.

If all other parameters are fine and you truly are running an ULNS then then I would say you should look beyond just the removal of nutrients for your unsatisfactory SPS colours. As you have already done, lighting is one factor. The inclusion of certain nutrients is another factor in a very long list of others. Heck maybe how your SPS looks now is their natural state

[Zoaelite]

Rick I think you have solved your problem if your halides were running for 11 hours a day, cut it back to 5 or 6 gradually and you should see the improvements continue. Do you add anything to the tank as far as AA goes?

[globaldesigns]

Originally Posted by kien

The only thing that would bother me is the fact that I wouldn't know if one or the other method is working. Sure, both zeolites and pellets could be working, but because you run both there is truly no way of telling. It could be the zeolites stripping nutrients or it could be the pellets. In the end you don't know for sure, you just have to assume.

If all other parameters are fine and you truly are running an ULNS then then I would say you should look beyond just the removal of nutrients for your unsatisfactory SPS colours. As you have already done, lighting is one factor. The inclusion of certain nutrients is another factor in a very long list of others. Heck maybe how your SPS looks now is their natural state

I agree 100% with you, and thought about removing... But Tony/Delphinus regretting removing his. So that is why, I may remove and nothing happens, and this was the case the first time I removed it. But that may not be the case the second time, so I am leaving it for now. Also I am basing this on the fact the both methods use different strains of bacteria and different methods. The Pellets basically keep the strains within the reactor and never populate within the reef itself, but the Zeo method releases them into the water columm and into the reef. Now could both interact with each other, well yes I think so, but I am not seeing any adverse affects. I wish there was more info/articles on this. But until I find some, I am experimenting I guess.

I hope the way they look isn't there natural state, cause they sure looked better when I bought them. Please don't tell me that!!! EWWWW Yuck!

I think maybe lighting and sandbed are factors here, thus the reason for some changes. And if not, both are still good changes.

Lets see what happens over the next month or so... Hopefully I keep seeing improvements as I am seeing now. And if I still am not happy, then I think I will look at the actual bulbs in the fixture.

Currently I run the original Hamilton Actinics with Ushio 10K bulbs. Maybe now or later I should look at changing them. What do you think? Maybe 14K in a good brand (what do you recommend?) in MH and doing something other than actinic T5HO (I only have 2X5foot T5HO), maybe a 10K there, or maybe a actinic in the back and 10K in the front. I have spent so much many on the past fixture expirementing I will take requests from you all on this. Don't want to own a storefront of bulbs that didn't work.

[globaldesigns]

Originally Posted by zoaElite

Rick I think you have solved your problem if your halides were running for 11 hours a day, cut it back to 5 or 6 gradually and you should see the improvements continue. Do you add anything to the tank as far as AA goes?

Yup, I use Zeo AA normal drops and the more concentrated liquid. Don't dose recommended, but about 50-60% of recommended.

But I agree, I probably was torching the corals with the light. With the coralife fixture I had it running the 11 hours also, but it just shows you how much better the hamilton is, I guess. As my wife said, it kinda started at the same time I got the new light.

It just upsets me to see all these beautiful colors in all your reef's. I am really envious here, as I don't have them. AND I SHOULD!!!, it isn't like I neglect things and I do love my tank.

[Myka]

Well jeez, it doesn't sound like you like any of my suggestions!

Originally Posted by globaldesigns

I also want to comment on my sandbed. I don't clean it with a sand vacumm, and if I stirred it you could see alot of brown sludge come out of it.

So now have 8 sand sifting stars, with the snails and a sand sifting shrimp. It can't hurt!!!

Plus with all those stars my sand bed is looking nice and fluffy/puffy with them going in and out of it.

Eep! You will essentially end up with a sterile sandbed with starfish. I'm not a fan of them at all, they are pigs, and eat too many good critters imo. I much prefer small conches like Strawberry, Fighting, or Orange Lip. Small sifting gobies that don't make a mess like Hector's or Randal's are great too.

Originally Posted by globaldesigns

I will go buy the phosphate...ELOS can do both high and low sensitivity, they usually come able to do both.

Elos doesn't compare to Merck. That's like comparing Mercedes to Rolls Royce. The Mercedes is really nice, but not beside the RR!

Nope, no phosphate media, not suppose to with Pellets or with Zeo, so I have never done so. I only use 1L of carbon (Kent Reef Carbon) in a reactor and change it out every month. Again, carbon is part of the Zeo method. 1L is below what my tank is needing, probably should have 1.5L for the water volume, but keeping it at 1L.

Oh, but you're not supposed to used Biopellets with Zeo either! I'm quite familar with the Zeo method as I used it myself for a couple years. I ditched it for the most part several months ago for ease of maintenance and my want to use GFO again. However, I do use Zeolites as well, just not the entire Zeo system anymore. It does fine with GFO and minimal carbon.

Originally Posted by globaldesigns

I see many sps tanks with zoas, like what I have without issue. So not sure this is an issue. Not sure here.

So have I, as have most others. Many are very successfully kept, but trust me when I say there is a difference when you remove chemically aggressive corals from an SPS tank.

Originally Posted by globaldesigns

I was running my lights for 11 hours, now things have been really cut back for the past 2 weeks. I will now say I am seeing polyp extension of SPS that never had any.

So what I am saying is light is very important, and too much light probably isn't good either, which would be my case. I will post on this as the weeks/months progress.

Increased polyp extension is very typical when halides are cut back. It is a reaction that will likely slowly fade over time as the corals get used to the new regime. Do you have supplemental lighting? I find most corals do best with a low light cycle, followed by high light cycle, finished with low light cycle. For example, run T5s for ~12 hours per day, and halides for 6-8 hours per day midday. Corals in general don't like to be blasted by halides for 11 or 12 hours per day, and not so suddenly either, it is stressful.

Originally Posted by globaldesigns

Even if I don't use them. But I do listen, believe me.

Ya, it's frustrating though when people ask for advice, brush it off, and don't follow any of it.

[globaldesigns]

Myka, sorry, its not that I don't like anything, I am just going to see where things go, and in most cases, what I have is working, just things aren't perfect.

I haven't heard of Merck, always used ELOS, so I will look into that.

With Zeo and BioPellets. You can't say you are not suppose to mix both, as there really isn't anything documented to support that, nor is there anything to support that you can. Zeo guru's recommend not mixing, but nothing scientific to prove either circumstances. So as I stated, I am experimenting, and because things are working, I am leaving it all in. If I take out the Zeolites, nothing bad may happen, but it may... So if I am not seeing anything bad, then just leave it for now.

With the lighting, I turn on the actinics at 9am, then at 5pm the halides come on, and then turn off at 10pm (prime viewing time for me and the family). Then the actinics turn off at 11pm. I am always interested in changing the lighting schedule or even the types of bulbs, being brand or Kelvin/Par. So any advice there would be appreciated. I think the hamilton is just proving to be a much better brand fixture than the coralife, I am just finding out the hard way as my corals did well with the old schedule when the coralife was being used.

In regards to your advice, please don't be offended. I do appreciate everything and believe me I may make more changes. But at this time, I am not going to jump and be to aggressive with my changes. Thinking things over, this is the best approach, but as time progresses I may make further changes, and some of your advice and others may come into play. Again, please don't take offense, non was intended, and nothing was brushed off and may be used in future. Also look at this... This thread may also help others, and we all cannot lose scope of what canreef is about... Helping everyone!

Again thanks for the time you took to give me your input.

Rick

[kien]

Originally Posted by globaldesigns

but nothing scientific to prove either circumstances.

I don't think that there is anything "scientific" that proves that any of those zeo bottles actually do anything for our corals. Not sure that there is anything "scientific" that proves that Bio pellets do anything either. Is it not one part theoretical and one part belief system ? That probably sums up the whole hobby actually..

[globaldesigns]

Originally Posted by kien

I don't think that there is anything "scientific" that proves that any of those zeo bottles actually do anything for our corals. Not sure that there is anything "scientific" that proves that Bio pellets do anything either. Is it not one part theoretical and one part belief system ? That probably sums up the whole hobby actually..

HEHE, I agree... I have probably just bought into the "Ole Snake Oil" Treatment for many things.

And again I agree with you, this whole hobby is like playing with a nuclear bomb, one wrong move and VOILA, crashed tank. But where would this hobby be, if people didn't experiment.