Awsome T5 Pendants By Fauna Marin

[Canadian]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

To be fair I don't think that Grim ever intended himself to become a definitive source or that he ever tried to represent his results as scientific. I've got the impression more than once that he is uncomfortable with it for many of the same reasons you are.

I think that's fair. I have gotten the same impression from Grim as well. But as you can see in this thread other hobbyists seem to ignorantly (and I mean that in the very literal sense without any offense intended) prop him up as such an authority as to suggest that his "tests" need to be done in order to provide a stamp of approval on anything related to T5 fluorescents. If you look back at his "tests" you'll see they have been wrought with errors (to which Grim has admitted quite admirably). Unfortunately too many hobbyists seem to latch on to the pseudo-scientific "tests" because they appear to be well done without understanding enough about critically appraising research and study design. As someone whose profession is dependent upon critical analysis of research, and as someone who both publishes and critically appraises randomized controlled trials for a living, I can't help but be critical of those "tests". And I simply feel it is necessary for hobbyists to understand that these "tests" and their results are certainly not definitive and should be interpreted with caution.

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by Canadian

I think that's fair. I have gotten the same impression from Grim as well. But as you can see in this thread other hobbyists seem to ignorantly (and I mean that in the very literal sense without any offense intended) prop him up as such an authority as to suggest that his "tests" need to be done in order to provide a stamp of approval on anything related to T5 fluorescents. If you look back at his "tests" you'll see they have been wrought with errors (to which Grim has admitted quite admirably). Unfortunately too many hobbyists seem to latch on to the pseudo-scientific "tests" because they appear to be well done without understanding enough about critically appraising research and study design. As someone whose profession is dependent upon critical analysis of research, and as someone who both publishes and critically appraises randomized controlled trials for a living, I can't help but be critical of those "tests". And I simply feel it is necessary for hobbyists to understand that these "tests" and their results are certainly not definitive and should be interpreted with caution.

A few years ago I did a series of tests evaluating the UV output of different florescent bulbs over their useful lifespan. One thing that we found was a higher than expected variance in initial output which tended to narrow over time but was still significant. You can't get definitive results that account for these things without a very large sample size and some good statistical work. I don't think this will happen any time soon and even if it did it's tough to decide what actual impact some of the measures would really have.

One thing that will help people make better choices is an open discussion with manufacturers that goes beyond the marketing bullet points and really talks about their products. I think Aqua Digital and Fauna Marine deserve some brownie points for doing this the way they have with this and some of their other products.

[Aqua-Digital]

Many thanks for the very kind post. We do try our best to be as open as possible, in fact I can assure you 100% every stitch of info here is all I know, Claude from fauna is now here also and I hope is filling in the gaps to your questions that I can not answer as accurately.

The success of this light fixture is for us to get it right and give everyone what they want so your input is valuable, having said that the unit is now 99% complete so the design and concept won't change from here on.

Please continue to ask/debate and I will do my honest best to give you "non marketing hyped" answers.

[Canadian]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

A few years ago I did a series of tests evaluating the UV output of different florescent bulbs over their useful lifespan. One thing that we found was a higher than expected variance in initial output which tended to narrow over time but was still significant. You can't get definitive results that account for these things without a very large sample size and some good statistical work. I don't think this will happen any time soon and even if it did it's tough to decide what actual impact some of the measures would really have.

One thing that will help people make better choices is an open discussion with manufacturers that goes beyond the marketing bullet points and really talks about their products. I think Aqua Digital and Fauna Marine deserve some brownie points for doing this the way they have with this and some of their other products.

I concur. And as I stated before, I would be more inclined to base my decision on a hobbyist's recommendation including, "Hey here's a picture of my tank and livestock, and here's what I think about product X" than I would on misguided "tests". I would know that the effects of product X can't be controlled for in that hobbyist's tank, but I wouldn't be basing my decision on the "measurement" of one single parameter (eg. PAR) that could, in all likelihood, be falsely reported.

[trilinearmipmap]

Originally Posted by Canadian

As someone whose profession is dependent upon critical analysis of research, and as someone who both publishes and critically appraises randomized controlled trials for a living, I can't help but be critical of those "tests".

Part of my job includes reading and acting upon the results of randomized controlled trials, the majority of which are severely flawed in many respects.

Grim's tests are flawed, as are almost any other trials I have looked at of anything else. I will take the information in these tests, as well as experience from other hobbyists, into consideration when choosing equipment. Unfortunately it takes a year or two for sufficient hobbyist experience to be out there for a new product. Hence the tests. Obviously there will be severe flaws in any testing of aquarium equipment. The testing is not randomized or blinded. No one has the time or money to hang 200 T5 pendants side by side and grow corals under them for a year.

I'm looking for an 8-bulb 48" T5 fixture which is silent, reliable, has a splash guard bulb shield which is easy to remove and clean, is set up for easy bulb changes, and has an easily adjustable hanging fixture. It must not have light bleed/glare into the surrounding room. I'm looking for a 30% improvement in light output compared to my current T5 Tek-light which has served me well for the past several years. I'll need either a year of hobbyist experiences and testimonials, or some comparative testing, before I buy it. And I'm expecting a price between $800.00 and $1000.00, or I will go with the PowerModule.

In my view the over $1000.00 price niche for lights is reserved for the wealthy, or dedicated fanatical reefers. Either of these groups is likely to go with the fixture that has an established reputation as being a high-end product.

[lastlight]

I'd personally love to see some photos of the real lights. The giesemann site is particularly bad for showing renders all the time. Any chance we could see what the bodies look like? Even a shot of a shell off the assembly line from a few different angles?

I was planning to retro mh and t5 due to any decent looking fixtures having to be shipped long distances or in some cases not being very easy to even get.

[Aqua-Digital]

In regards to you wanting a years worth of testing first before purchasing our fixture, I assume you will be waiting a year, other than that to meet your criteria for testing you will have to go for the other lamp you suggest, if of course it is still available, I have struggled in research to find adequate supply chain of this unit, but maybe I am lacking somewhere.

To clear this testing up and get back to the actual lamp thread, Fauna will do the same that all other light manufacturers do in regards to product launch and new products. As there is no accurate governing body in testing such equipment other than certification testing the lamp, we (just as other main stream manufactuers) will not be giving/loaning/selling cheap to any hobbyist or such like that states they have some sort of knowledge in testing a fixture.

Why - As you have all debated, there is no warrantable body out there that ALL could trust.

So we, just like all other manufacturers, will use buyer feedback to decide on the lamp, this is no different than geissman or other quality brands.

What we will do however is continue to answer your questions openly and make sure our dealers have access to demo units to display to you prior to purchase.

There is always a draw back with providing such open pre launch information as this, interested parties will always argue above and beyond what is feasibly possible for a manufacturer to agree to.

Please keep your great technical questions about this important fixture coming

[Aqua-Digital]

Hi Last Light

I hope to have true pictures in the next 10 days, and i agree clear percise pictures are very important and something I will make sure is made available

[Canadian]

Originally Posted by trilinearmipmap

And I'm expecting a price between $800.00 and $1000.00, or I will go with the PowerModule.

In my view the over $1000.00 price niche for lights is reserved for the wealthy, or dedicated fanatical reefers. Either of these groups is likely to go with the fixture that has an established reputation as being a high-end product.

An 8 lamp 48" ATI Powermodule without lamps is $900 USD from ReefGeek - your only real option for getting a new fixture. You're going to pay the currently hefty exchange rate, duty, brokerage charges, and shipping charges on top of that (in addition to GST and PST which you'd pay for any light purchased within BC or from the US) which is going to far exceed your $1000 ceiling. I guess I'm confused that you take issue with the "over $1000.00 price range" while at the same time saying "or I will go with the PowerModule" when the Powermodule will likely cost around $1300 without lamps and before tax, and you'll end up waiting about 2-3 months to get it.

And with respect to

Obviously there will be severe flaws in any testing of aquarium equipment. The testing is not randomized or blinded. No one has the time or money to hang 200 T5 pendants side by side and grow corals under them for a year.

Obviously no one is going to go to that trouble. The problem is that the "testing" you wanted done by Grim is so far from being even remotely valid or even reliable that it's laughable that you would suggest you would base a purchase decision on his "testing." As far as I know he has one sample of each of the fixtures he tests and a few samples of various reflectors, ballasts and lamps. You keep talking about hanging 200 pendants side by side and growing corals under them for a year but that is so far from the "testing" that Grim does that I'm utterly confused. He measures PAR of lamps and reflectors and takes pictures of the color emitted by lamps. To date I've never seen him perform any comparisons of coral growth or coloration with respect to fixture, lamp, ballast, or reflector design.

[Aqua-Digital]

Very interesting, just been on RG web site and they have removed ATI from the site.

Wander why

I can not find anywhere in the whole of North America selling this fixture.

So back to the Great new fauna fixture then

Canadian also brings up a valid point here that is a direct benefit to all Canada consumers. The Fauna products are purchased in Euro's converted into CAD and as such not effected by the inflated USD, so you really will pay less than you would for any comparible unit coming out the States for sure, including no import Tax or crazy shipping prices

The biggest benefit for the canadian consumer is stability in retail price. We are getting more an more enquires from new European manufacturers seeking a canada based distributor exactly for this reason.