How long do u acclimate new fish? & SAD story to follow.

[bulletsworld]

Originally Posted by SeaHorse_Fanatic

Honestly, you'll be doing others a favour. If not for us humans, think of the fishes' lives you may help to save

O.k you guys do have a very good point here... Warn my fellow reefers!And FISHES LIVES I MAY SAVE? HERE I COME REEFERS & FISHES!!!!!

O.k Vendor rating here I come..... *MARCH*

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

I think I was a Fish lawyer in a previous life

Anthony

[bulletsworld]

Well thank you Anthony & everyone for your advice! *HUGS*

Marching to Vendor rating now.... *MARCH*

[Rikko]

I agree with what's been said here (and I'm jumping on very late, but the subject line made me stay away for a few days ).. This really needs to be blown open in vendor ratings. Frankly, telling people not to acclimate fish is dangerous and irresponsible. I'm pretty sure he was just lying in your case to prevent giving you any relief from the cost, but that's still blatant stupidity.

There was really a much simpler way for him to go about it, and that's to do what I do:
"Absolutely no guarantees on any marine life once you've paid for it and left the store with it, even if I chase you down the street and step on the bag and run back into the store." <grin>

You see this kind of thing far too often.. Slimy businessmen whipping up any story they can to absolve themselves of any responsibility. You wouldn't believe the horror stories I've heard from customers over the years.

FWIW, it's your responsibility to make sure the animal appears in good health before you buy it. With water like that, he could very well have looked normal (we all know how late it is by the time a fish exhibits symptoms), but the shock of bagging and tagging just threw him for a loop.. Not a whole lot you could have done.
Then again, there's also a measure of trust when you go to a business and expect that their holding facilities are at least borderline adequate. The nitrates don't really interest me (I've seen thriving display tanks with nitrates in excess of 600ppm - fish that are used to it don't seem to care), but to have ammonia that high is absolutely unforgivable, as it that pH.

Sorry to hear you lost the fish. The sad reality of this hobby is that the guessing and testing on living creatures happens both on account of our own knowledge and experience, but also in our business dealings with shady dealers.

But hey, if you want to move to Vancouver you can have some free algae!

[Van down by the river]

Hello Bulletsworld,

First off my condolences, it's sad to lose any fish for any reason. It's especially frustrating when you have done everything correctly.

You are doing things correctly, there are a few points to improve, but you are already doing a better job than the majority of hobbyists.

Great acclimating suggestion posts from all you fellow Canreefers.

Just minor thoughts:
May I suggest that you use a container (eg: ice cream pail, Tupperware bin, old salt bucket,etc) instead of clipping the bag to the side of your tank. This reduces the temptation to release early.We all know how slow time can go when waiting to release our new tankmates.
It also helps you control the possibility of store water possibly contaminating your aquarium. Often the bag will often partially deflate/collapse and stress the fish as they feel "trapped" and try to swim to the reef they now recognise below. When placed in a non transparent container with dim room lighting they will often settle down very quickly. Some fish are far more photosensitive than others. Drip with some bulk airline. You can clip the top to your tank, and regulate it with either a plastic airline valve or a knot.

The setting of a dollar store oven timer is an excellent tool for reminding the time and not forgetting about the fish or overflowing the container.

I suggest in the future you test the water in both your system and the bag prior to starting to gauge the transition time required. At very least PH, Salinity, and temp. You have been doing 45-60 min which is fine. Some do longer but I don't feel it's necessary unless the water chemistry demands it or the fish has been in transit for more than a hour or two.

You mentioned it appeared "shy" there are many reasons for this, one of them may be that the fish had only arrived very recently. So allot of stress from recent shipping may be a factor.

It is most likely your Tang died of shock due to shipping stress, and poor water quality.
Much of the damage was done prior to you placing him in your aquarium. You never mentioned temperature. There may have also been a quick temperature drop during transit from the shop to your home as Edmonton is certainly not a tropical destination.

Yes, the dying fish is partly responsible for the high Ammonia and Nitrates readings. But I would be willing to bet that at least the Nitrate was high from the original tank water. The respiration of the fish would deplete the oxygen and drop the PH but again, I believe you would find that these conditions are probably similar to the original water.

It was bad water that only got worse.

Basement operations are simply that. Basement operations. If you needed surgery, would you trust a Doctor that worked out of their basement as much as one operating from a well run hospital? I highly doubt it.

This is a good guess at what happened:
A Powder Brown Tang was delivered to a basement operation. After 20-30 hours of transit it arrived with a PH of 6.9-7.2, high ammonia, and a temperature of 62-65 degrees. It was then lifted out of the dark box into a bright room it's bag cut and dropped into a brightly lit aquarium. Stressed, hungry, breathing heavy, in unfamiliar surroundings, and being picked on by other tankmates. It has shed it's slime coat and is very susceptible to disease. Now these new surroundings are better than the dark bag, but not by much. The water is old and hasn't been changed recently, the Ammonia is climbing because of the improperly maintained filters cannot handle the additional bioload. the PH is dropping because of the low level of salt and buffers. and the acids from decaying organic matter is suppressing the PH
So you have salinity 1.016, Levels of Ammonia and Nitrite, high levels of Nitrate, and a low PH of 7.7-7.9. Not off to a great start. So then the survivors that manage to make it through the night find themselves in this dismal position.

Why is the original water like that?
Salinity: The excuse will be that it helps prevent parasites (so does treating your fish properly!)
Hypersalinity levels are generally accepted for reducing Saltwater ich at 1.018-1.020
and this will depend slightly on the author.
Now I have seen studies with saltwater fish experimenting with a salinity as low as 1.012 . They found that the fish exhibited faded colors and other stress symptoms. This is not recommended for stores or hobbyists as it is far below natural seawater salinity. Lower salinity does occur in nature close to river mouths, etc. but that is not the discussion here.

I have often heard people use the low salinity excuse when they simply didn't want to spend money on salt when and IF they did water changes.

Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate: Who cares what they say. The reality is bad water quality caused by overstocking, overfeeding, inadequate filtration, poor maintenance, lack of water changes, need I go on? I don't think so.

PH: See above. Low salinity (low buffers/low alkalinity), bad water quality, and poor maintenance result in a system with low and fluctuating PH.

The result is dirty tanks with lots of algae and cyano bacteria(red algae).

Just wanted to address this:

The nitrates don't really interest me (I've seen thriving display tanks with nitrates in excess of 600ppm - fish that are used to it don't seem to care), but to have ammonia that high is absolutely unforgivable, as it that pH.-Rikko

First off, which test did you use to get that 600ppm reading?
600ppm in a reef tank? Sorry, this answer is just plain wrong.
That tank would crash faster than a blind man driving against traffic on the freeway!

" We recently had a reliable report for a major U.S. reef aquarium of 450 mg/l(450ppm) for NO3. Few if any, invertebrates are present in this aquarium. Many of the fish are sickly and the death rate is high.- Walter Adey, National Museum of Natural History"

Ahh, I love this next paragraph, I don't think I could even make stuff like this up!:

So I tell this guy I bought it off of. Just so devastated by the loss of this beautiful fish... Guess what the guy says to me. It’s my fault that I acclimated the fish. Yup, he says that it stresses the fish out way to much, stating he NEVER acclimates the fish. When they come in from the Caribbean he just take them outta their bags right away and dumps them in his tanks. YIKS! HUH? But I told him the salinity is way off the average reef. He says nope that doesn't mater. He says, had I of not acclimated my fish & just dumped it in as soon as I got home the fish would still be alive today.

Well he is right about one thing..... It is your fault.......That you chose to purchase a fish from his store and listen to his advice( I know you didn't follow it, and for that I thank you).

This must be a very rare Powder brown Tang as well, as all the PBM that I've ever seen, come from the South Pacific. I guess he has a special Caribbean strain.
I don't expect stores to know Latin names, but I do expect them to at least know which Ocean a fish comes from.

So I'm wondering.... Has anyone tried this?

Unfortunately, way too many. Does it work? Sure, it's the lazy man's way, and the worst way. It's not guaranteed to kill your fish. Just like smoking isn't guaranteed to kill you but odds are.........

Can't a fish go into Osmotic shock if the temps, water PH & salinity are WAY off?

Definitely.

Every pet store i have ever been at or worked at has used acclimation procedures like that of JL AQUATICS.I would never risk dumping any fish right into any tank -Reef_kid

You are lucky Dave, unfortunately it is not done at EVERY store.
I also agree that PBM if stressed, or not acclimated properly are very susceptible to Ich.

You mentioned that he claimed to run copper in his tanks. The fact that it was 0.25 shows that he is neither testing it or dosing it correctly and the high organic load in his aquariums is neutralizing it. Again an example of poor husbandry.

Now, I do often agree that with saltwater fish it is "Caveat emptor" buyer beware. Ultimately livestock are an inconsistent and uncontrollable commodity. Even if a fish is perfectly caught, handled, shipped, acclimated, quarantined,fed, and displayed I have no control over what the hobbyist does after it leaves my hands.
Believe me, finding a hobbyist that admits to doing things wrong and killing a fish or being lazy with acclimating is like finding a guilty man in jail.Few and far between!

Every situation is unique. That being said, I have replaced or given discounts on replacement fish.

To all the people who say they never acclimate and never lose fish? I'd like some of your magic water! or is it that you are ________( rhymes with frying).
Go ahead argue all you want, I have acclimated thousands and thousands of fish, coral and inverts. I have sold fish to you or someone like you over and over again. It's always something else's fault it die or "disappeared" . I'm sorry but the odds just aren't in your favour.

If acclimating properly is wrong than why does every reputable store, wholesaler, importer, and public aquarium swear by it? Why have I never EVER read a husbandry book telling me not to acclimate?
Is my point clear enough?

AndyL made a point that in certain extreme cases "grab and plop" is an option, I agree but again those are extreme cases.

I kinda took my chance too since the guy told me when I asked him if the fish was eating, he told me that he wasn’t sure cause he doesn’t watch when he puts food in the tanks. I asked him what he feeds. He told me, everyone gets fed Only brine shrimp. Thinking to myself, no wonder the fish are looking skinny.

I'll translate the shop owners comments:
"he wasn’t sure cause he doesn’t watch when he puts food in the tanks."
"He doesn't care"

"everyone gets fed Only brine shrimp" "He doesn't care"

Everytime somebody asks me about food I see it as an opportunity to help them understand the benefits of a varied diet and addressing specialized diets for different fish. I practice this at home and at work.

So I ask, why do people buy there? The answer is hidden in the following quote;

he does have very cheap prices,you pretty much take your chances when buying from him.If he is using this board and is reading this,he should make things right-Kuatto

Based on his business practises it is highly unlikely he knows or even cares about this or any other knowledge sharing website.

some places keep the salinity purposely low to keep the bacteria in check. its kinda cheap but thats the cost of doing business with shady dealers.- Willow

It has no effect on bacteria.

But I do feel bad about posting him in vendors... as it persuades people not to buy there, right? Thinking it’s not his fault really that the fish didn't make it? Or is it? What do you even say on the vendors thingy anyway that I didn’t already say here?-bulletsworld

The vendors forum is useless unless it reports both good and bad fairly. Yes it may persuade people to spend their money more wisely. Isn't that the point? The principle is to reward reputable stores and steer people away from poorly run stores. The stores then have the choice to improve or go out of business. Just stick to the facts when you post and let people make their own choice.

I'm not trying to be mean or single anyone out, but when people lie about their success's and failures we can't learn from it and move forward. I will be very disappointed if this post is censored.I think it's important to be truthful about how stores operate and treat their animals and customers.

I would also like to mention that I'd like to see more postings when somebody does provide good service and knowledgeable advice.

I would encourage you to look at more than price as a deciding factor in the future. I know personally that you have many other choices in Edmonton to make your purchases. Many of which provide far better service and quality. Yes some of them may be more expensive, but how much of a deal is a dead fish?

Oh my god I think that's the longest post I've ever written!

[Willow]

dang brother.. that was well said!

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Van down by the river

I will be very disappointed if this post is censored

There is nothing to censor in your post. Very well written, factual and honest. Good job. And where the heck have you been lately?? Oh, and ya, definitely the longest post so far

[danny zubot]

Just my 2 cents.

The LFS you got the fish from told you to drop the fish right in right? Well if this is the acclimation practice he promotes then he is responsible for the death of every fish he sells. A fish can't tolerate a 1.010 increase in salinity in such a short period of time. He should adjust his salinity if he wants people to drop the fish in like that. Also, you asked,

Can a fish create an ammonia spike immediately after it dies?

The answer is that a fish can create an NH4 spike while it is still alive. Fish secrest amonia as waste and while under stress excrete a lot more than usual. In this reagard the drop and plop method is good. You were stuck between rock and a hard place, soory about your loss. I'd expose the LFS if I were you!

[Delphinus]

Nice to see you back James.

[Beverly]

I've had my share of heartbreak fish deaths from most of the lfs in Edmonton over the years. From these deaths, I want to share a few tips I have developed for my personal use on picking fish from a lfs:

- be knowledgeable about the fish you might like in your tank you hope will be at your lfs. If you see a fish you like but don't know anything about it (after following the instructions listed below), ask the lfs person if they can look up the species characteristics, such as food preferences, adult size, reef safe or not, aggressive/gets along with others, etc.

- when you find a fish you like, spend at least 5 full minutes observing its behaviour in the tank. Watch for things like a crowded tank, shyness, strange swimming behaviour, torn or shredded fins, wounds, ich, velvet, lumps where there shouldn't be lumps, if the fish is abnormally skinny. If any of these are present, pass on the fish. It is in poor health.

- if the fish passes the above inspection, observe the other fish in the tank and in the other tanks beside, above or below it for signs of parasites. If there are parasites in one of these tanks, parasites (perhaps dormant) are likely going to be in the tank your fish is in, as banks of tanks share the same water and filtration systems. Again, pass on this fish.

- if the the fish passes the two above inspections, ask a store person to feed the fish to make sure it is eating. Don't take the word of ANYONE at a lfs that the fish is eating, see it for yourself. If it does not eat, pass on this fish.

I have gone into my favourite lfs (and other lfs) several times over the years and not been happy with the fish I have seen and opted to come back another day. Buying fish should not an impulse purchase, even though we might think we'll never see another fish like that for a few months (which would probably be true).

Wait for fish that are in good health, NO MATTER WHAT!!! Doing so will reduce, but not eliminate, the chances you are bringing home a sick fish.

Whew! If I have overstated something, or left anything out, please feel free to point out my errors.