how many times a hour should the water go through the sump?

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat

Mr Wilson. If you were to use a single pass skimmer for a FIFO, how would you guarantee that the sump return pump equaled EXACTLY what the skimmer inlet pump was pushing? To be true FIFO, all the water from the tank drain needs to pass through the skimmer, just once. Then, the return pump pumps the skimmed water back to the tank. it would be next to impossible to match them exactly. Thats why a recirc would work better. A recirc doesnt care what goes into it for flow to make the bubbles etc. The slower the inlet flow, the longer the contact time the water has, because bubble production remains constant.

It doesn't have to exactly matched. As I stated in the example above...

If the return pump is too strong, the extra water the skimmer can't handle will bypass the skimmer and go over the glass partition to the second zone. If the return pump is too weak, the extra water processed by the protein skimmer will overflow backwards over the glass partition back into the on deck circle for the skimmer. Both scenarios are less than perfect but what is

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Actually protein skimmers have an efficacy rate of 80% for removing proteins and 20% for removing TOC (total organic carbon - DOC & POC).

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature

Ok, if you read that it is not an efficiency, it is how much it will remove in 24 hours.. an eficiency would be how much it would remove in one volume change of the skimmer, which is what this discussion is about having a flow rate matched to your skimmer. so if my skimmer had a flow rate of 600gph, I would call the efficiency the amount of crap removed from 10gal of water in 1 min, a power efficiency would be how much is removed compared to the power input.

so ya the 80 and 20%s have nothing to do with what we are talking about really.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

For what it's worth, the proper flow rate according to Pedro Ramon Escobal, the man who literally wrote the book on filtration devices http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aquatic-Syst.../dp/1888381051
... and wrote the book on rocket science. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Methods-Astr...tt_at_ep_dpt_1
... then another book after the rocket scientists finally understood the first one. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Methods-Orbi...tt_at_ep_dpt_2

give me a break, there are tones of books out there that say you want over 20X flow rate. just because some one writs a book doesn't mean it is right, it may work for him, it ma be how he feels, but that is it. as for being a rocket scientest whopity doo.. I am an Marine Engineer, he my direct line of work deals with water flow and movment, but does it mean I know about turf scrubbers... hell no never even seen one, but I di know alot of people have to low of flow on them also (I have been reading about them) but I do know water flow and pumps, and heaters, and well anything else that is mechanical with out tanks. hmm maybe I should write a book now that I am retired.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Mr OM

Just so it is on record could you point me to where I said that.

ok, not exactly but implied now that I read it again. by sayign skimm it 100% while you are talkign about the lower flow you are saying that the skimmer is 100% or close to it efficient.

Originally Posted by Mr OM

If you skim it 100% then what you return to the tank is clean, if you skim 10% of it then 90% of what you return is dirty or unskimmed, why would you do that when it costs more money in hydro and pumps to do worse?

Steve

[banditpowdercoat]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

It doesn't have to exactly matched. As I stated in the example above...

If the return pump is too strong, the extra water the skimmer can't handle will bypass the skimmer and go over the glass partition to the second zone. If the return pump is too weak, the extra water processed by the protein skimmer will overflow backwards over the glass partition back into the on deck circle for the skimmer. Both scenarios are less than perfect but what is

Then by your own words, is NOT a FIFO. can not have extra, or recirculating water for a FIFO style sump

For a FIFO, All water that enters sump, needs to pass through the skimmer ONCE, then on through the rest of the system ONCE, then back to tank. NO bypass, and no water recircing in loops. Everything is in series.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat

One way you get close to a FIFO style sump is with a recirc style skimmer. If the drain of the tank is fed Directly into skimmer, then the skimmer will skim 100% of the sump flow.(to the skimmers efficiency's of course) The Sump return pump would then only need to be sized for the skimmers need. But, it seem's most skimmers now are being made single pass.

recirc skimmer are usaly fed slow Dan, it would work but not sure if it would be any better.

Steve

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

Ok, if you read that it is not an efficiency, it is how much it will remove in 24 hours.. an eficiency would be how much it would remove in one volume change of the skimmer, which is what this discussion is about having a flow rate matched to your skimmer. so if my skimmer had a flow rate of 600gph, I would call the efficiency the amount of crap removed from 10gal of water in 1 min, a power efficiency would be how much is removed compared to the power input.

so ya the 80 and 20%s have nothing to do with what we are talking about really.

Steve

So how would you rate the efficiency of the following example...

You have a protein skimmer that requires a 600 GPH feed. You feed said skimmer 600 gallons of display tank water every hour with no bypass in the sump and without allowing the skimmer to process water twice before it is returned to the display tank.

No one in this thread claimed that is 100% efficacy, but since you are broaching the subject, how efficient do you consider that configuration to be?

The thread isn't about protein skimmer limitations. It's about making the operation of the equipment you have run efficiently.

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

give me a break, there are tones of books out there that say you want over 20X flow rate. just because some one writs a book doesn't mean it is right, it may work for him, it ma be how he feels, but that is it. as for being a rocket scientest whopity doo.. I am an Marine Engineer, he my direct line of work deals with water flow and movment, but does it mean I know about turf scrubbers... hell no never even seen one, but I di know alot of people have to low of flow on them also (I have been reading about them) but I do know water flow and pumps, and heaters, and well anything else that is mechanical with out tanks. hmm maybe I should write a book now that I am retired.

Steve

Let me guess, you haven't even read the book

So based on the book you read, you are discounting P.R. Escobal's mathematical formulas. Please post your references so we can compare the math. If the author of the book you read had a breakthrough that challenges the industry standards that Escobal has set, then I would love to see how they came to a different conclusion.

[banditpowdercoat]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

recirc skimmer are usaly fed slow Dan, it would work but not sure if it would be any better.

Steve

I know, hence the needing slow sump flow, or a REALLY large skimmer that would be so costly as to make the FIFO design not that appealing.


But really, in a sump with your skimmer, how much water is being recirced by a regular one pass skimmer in a sump chamber? Sure, you match sump flow to skimmer flow, but there is allways skimmer outlet water that will be sucked back into the inlet. Only true way to ensure that doesnt happen is to feed skimmer from different compartment.

[banditpowdercoat]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

So how would you rate the efficiency of the following example...

You have a protein skimmer that requires a 600 GPH feed. You feed said skimmer 600 gallons of display tank water every hour with no bypass in the sump and without allowing the skimmer to process water twice before it is returned to the display tank.

No one in this thread claimed that is 100% efficacy, but since you are broaching the subject, how efficient do you consider that configuration to be?

The thread isn't about protein skimmer limitations. It's about making the operation of the equipment you have run efficiently.

That scenario will be as efficient as the Skimmer manufactures designed it to be.