Tank Raised Fish Poll

[Aquattro]

Sam, if you're gonna make me dig out the economics texts, I'm not gonna participate in this thread anymore!!! :P

[bongy]

I think Sam made a very good point.

However, I think the price for tank-raised fish will drop eventually as more company are doing it and with better success due to increase of knowledge and technology.

I also think the price for wild fish will rise due to increase of ( salary, environment, permit, etc ).

At the end, it will made economic sense even for the average reefer to buy tank raise fish. Just look at the fresh water side. (I know breeding clown is not like breeding neon tetra but you get the point). The question will be how soon we can get there. Actually, for some saltwater fish such as Bangaii cardinal, we are there already.

As for me, I would get a tank-raised one if the price difference is not too large. Size is not an issue for me as I like to get fish small and grow them up.

Bongy

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Delphinus

Wow, what a fabulous discussion.

Brad's totally right, the average consumer is probably a total idiotic twat. It's going to be an uphill battle to convince them one-by-one. So if they're incapable of making the right decisions, then let's make them incapable of making the wrong decision.

*I am not trying to single out your posts Tony, but they hapend to be perfect for what I wanted to state *

This was my point at the beginning but lets drop the name calling part and just try this.. the average consumer is uneducated about the issues going on, now having said this even the majority of educated people will take a helthy wild caught clown over one that was tank raised but costs 15.00 more. Instead of trying to brand everyone who would take the cheeper option as unethacale, and trying to pass laws to make them ethical (starting to sound like a waist of time green peace idea...) (sorry if I ofended anyone who supports grrenpeace buit I have seen that they do more dammage than good and I do not suport them in anyway)

What needs to be done instead is for some major investments to go into captive breading programs.. not just little operations (again it is a nobal effort but a waist of time as you will only be able to suport a small area and your prices will be high) With a large operation, as what the fresh water industry has right now, you can flood the market and efectivaly drop the price of captive raised to close to that of wild caught. think about it.. you are shipping short distances so you can ship larger quantities instead of a reduced # on a 24 hour flight, the fish are more helthy you say so more will survive allowing more to be sold at a profit..

Once again I maintain if some one is serious enuf and starts a large operation there is no reason they can't bring them in at a price that will undercut wild fish and make them more atractive to the consumer.

oh, don't reply with how much it costs so and so to raise this or that.. I am not talking about the hobbiest scale or even a fish store that grows there own.. i am talking about a full scale large operation.. of course smaller operations are going to have higher costs/fish.. just the way it goes..

Originally Posted by Delphinus

Steve, I know you say you'd just buy the cheaper option, but I look at your setup, and I look at your toys er tools and camera and stuff, and I look at your photographs .... and I know there's no way you're not convinced that superior products are more important than just good deals every time.

Delphinus, this is true.. I care a lot for my critters, which is the reason I got rid of the hobo tang I had.. he was fine in my tank at the size he was but I know he would soon be to large and there would be a war with my Yellow tang.. but if you look closely at all my equipment and such I have built most of it myself (or with help) for a cost that was way way lower than retail.. if I didn't have the resorses I would probably be running NO lights and a sea clone, but yes I do strive to give my critters the best home I can. now as for the issue at hand.. all my fish I have are wild caught ( I am assuming) they are all hellthy, and I think there happy (well except for the Tang which is still giving me the finger when I get close to the tank :shock: still mad that I tore the tank down I think)

but in all honesty I would buy a "Helthy" wild caught over a tank raised if there was a fair difference in the price.. I am not talking about 1 or 2 bucks but say more than 10.00

Originally Posted by Delphinus

The problem with captive raised is it requires an investment, and so to make the effort worthwhile, there has to be return on that investment. So, maybe the answer is in part to artificially inflate the price of wild-caught. Obviously that would have to be done at the govenmental level by introducing levies or taxes or duties, because otherwise it's just going into somebody's pocket, and that's no answer either (the idea is to discourage the excessive import of wild-caught).

Instead of encouraging people to charge more for wild caught what we need to do is show that on a large scale you can raise captive bread fish and show that you can make a profit at the same prices as wild caught. if you encourage higher pricing on wildcaught 99.9% of LFS are still not going to carry tang raised cuz there is more prifit on wild caught now. and fi you encourage higher prices on tank raised you will get places lying about it and charging tank raised prices for wild caught.. after all how is the average person going to tell? if they require a certificat, what you will see id stores mixing wild and tank to raise profit again.. so they might buy 40 tank raised and 100 wild but every time they sell a tank raised they will move a wild over to that tank.. remember 99.9% of LFS are there to make money not to give you the best deal they can.



like Tony said this is a good descussion to bad we (as in ethical reefers) are probably less than 1% of the reefers in the world. Yes I do concider my self ethical even though I chose the cheeper wild caught fish..


JMHO
Steve

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

Yes I do concider my self ethical even though I chose the cheeper wild caught fish..
Steve

really??

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by reef_raf

really??

Yes and I concider this because I will try to give what ever type of fish I have the best home I can.. If I feel I can't do this I will not buy the fish period.

Steve

[Troy F]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

I voted yes I would buy them oif availble, but if they were more expensive then my answer would be changed to NO.

I feel people who strive to raise tank raised fish should be doing so and offereing some incentive for people to buy thier fish..

Holy smokes! :shock: It costs more to raise fish than it does to pay some third world guy to go catch them and ship them here. What is the incentive for a breeder to set up a facility? Answer: profit. What is your incentive to buy captive bred fish? Answer: doing your part to save the natural reef. You don't get to call yourself ethical if you don't make ethical choices. An ethical choice would be; pay the extra ten bucks for a captive bred fish that will likely be healthier and therefore have a better chance at survival. Sack up and do your part, that would be ethical. I gaurantee that if we don't clean the hobby up there won't be one. If what Brad says holds true (and I don't dispute him) we might as well kiss it good bye today.

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

I also do not belive that something should be more expensive just because it is biodegradable, or enviromentlay friendly..

What if it costs more to create biodegradable or environmentally friendly products? Isn't it our moral obligation to do our part to leave this planet in the best possible shape. Those before us can claim ignorance to a large extent but we no longer can. This applies to everything in life: our tanks, our vehicles, our food, our garbage....etc.

Brad, I agree with a lot of what you say. Obviously, the majority of hobbyists are border line retarded or just don't care, either or. This is really neither here nor there anyway. If you know better and I know better we have to strive to set examples. If there are people that know better and don't do a thing...well I guess they have to look in the mirror. I've had talks with different people, some with tanks and some without. All agree this hobby isn't ethical but that if you do your part you can make a difference.

I don't agree that there will be no regulation in the hobby because it is too difficult. There has already been regulation implemented and I'm sure there will be more (see Caribbean and Hawaii). It really wouldn't be that hard to stop boxes of fish from Indonesia or Micronesia. Look at Fiji and the whole CITIES issue. It didn't take much did it? What about Europe and South Africa? Europe doesn't allow many specific species of coral and South Africa allows no stonies. We can hide our heads in the ground and say, "...it won't happen here..." or "...if it does happen, there's nothing we can do about it..." or we can start educating people and doing our part to convince people why they should spend an extra ten dollars or not purchase a certain animal.

[naesco]

Alright who is the reefer that voted NO?

[naesco]

I gotta say I am really proud of the almost unanimous support for captive raised fish and coral shown on this thread.
I think it is a Canadian thing.
You would never get this kind of support on a US board. There would be all kinds of 'right to bear arms wierdos' demanding the constitutional right to continue to harvest the seas because it is their right; ethics be damned.

[canadawest]

As an individual who has been contributing captive bred and raised fish to local hobbiests and LFS, I of course fully support the sale of captive bred/raised fish vs wild caughts.

I think the benefits of captive bred/raised livestock are just too valuable to put a $$ figure to, but it does boil down to an education issue. I also agree that if you put a choice in front of the "average consumer" they will tend to take the cheaper choice unless they are more educated about their choice.

I also agree that we (board members) are not a representative group within the hobby, and the fact that we tend to be more educated and knowledgeable about our hobby predisposes us to choose better alternatives like captive bred/raised fish.

With all that said, I will continue to proudly breed and raise fish, and trade captive raised corals and inverts. While I'm certainly a sucker for a "good deal", my preference is to the long-term health and happiness of my animals.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Troy F

If you know better and I know better we have to strive to set examples. If there are people that know better and don't do a thing...well I guess they have to look in the mirror.

Troy, I agree whole-heartedly with this. And as I stated, I am more than willing to pay a lot more for a captive bred fish if it saves a wild one from being ripped from the ocean. With the money I spend on this hobby, whining about $10 or $30 or whatever is silly. I don't even mean to suggest I will pay more for a "better" fish, just one that saves a wild fish from capture(shipping, suffering, death, that sort of thing). Am I normal? Unfortunately, no. I try to propagate knowledge of the hobby to anyone that will care to listen. I don't know how many anemone arguments I've had at the LFS.....but I continue to try.
As for legislation, I think that might help, although I truly believe the only laws we will ever see are not ones we would welcome. Hopefully this isn't the case, but I do believe it is.