Ick thread**ongoing treatment

[bulletsworld]

Originally Posted by Beverly

Stress alone will NOT cause ich.

*STATED- As a matter of my own experience and my own opinion. As this subject always a debate.

Bev, yes this true, I have found in MOST cases. As when you were having problems with ick way back I introduced you to the links you provide and the advice to try Hyposalinity instead of Copper treatment after you had problems with copper treatment suffering loses, as we all have in one time or another. But one major factor, you don't consider with the debates, you never house tangs and neither did I at one time, but do now. I’ll tell you what I have come across….

So I used to be on the crusade of fish not carrying ick, treat Always. But after a few years arguing with others about ick not in tank all times, its introduced, I have come to understand an exception for some species, after carrying & treating other peoples fish, why the term for certain species calling them "ICK MAGNETS"...fish like, Regal Tangs, Powder Blue tangs, Brown Tangs, Naso tangs, and some other surgeons. And after treating Hyposalinity and copper I have had Regals tangs, etc, come back when stressed with symptoms of ick, after treatment had been done on fish, tank was left fallow (6 weeks), nothing was added, treated was done with Hyposalinity & or copper, etc. etc…all the steps….so being treated numerous times but the surgeon fish (i.e Regal) when put under stressful conditions (overcrowding, poor water quality, no hiding spots after aquascaping, skimmer down, etc.) will show signs of what look like ick but no other tank mates will become infected. The Regal (i.e) when stressful conditions are corrected, the signs of ick will pass. Perhaps this is why so many argue Garlic fixed the problem or perhaps it’s not ick at all but looks the same and has similar signs or perhaps it’s misunderstood.

I also used to think that "Ick Magnet meant that the Tang fish were the first ones to show the signs on the ick in tank as they are the ones that get called "Ick Magnet" but after treating many fish, I found that was not the case and in fact scale less fish (Puffers, Lionfish, Boxfish, etc) are the first ones to become infected & show signs of the ick. So why again do, regal tangs, powder blue tangs, etc, get called ick magnets. So now I understand the debates more, perhaps the theory & mixed studies are right, they can carry the parasite, almost viral in tangs. I will continue to follow researchers more.

So as stated reasons above, I will always suggest to first try water quality, determine reason for stress factor and dose with garlic. As chasing to capture, netting, treatment, FW dips, medications, etc, is very stressful to the fish.

But the end result if any other fish besides the tang are infected (also many variables depends on infection)... I will always suggest treatment of either Hyposalinity or Copper.


Either way in this case, IMO, a good call was made here with treatment of Hyposalinty. * CLAP *

Best of luck with treatment.

[danny zubot]

Wow Lee, I'm bummed out now. I really don't want the ick to return after this treatment, that would suck. Only time will tell I guess.

The fish seem to be doing ok in the q-tank even though the white spots have gotten worse in the past day. My salinity is down to about 17 ppt from 31 ppt on Sunday afternoon when I started the treatment. Too fast? I fear time is against me, so if I don't kill the ick soon my clown may loose the battle. His breathing is around 180 BPM! The other fish are quite calm though, even the regal tang.

I figured since I'm quarenteening (sp) every one, I'd go out and buy another fish and put him in there. (bad reef keeper I know) But its doin well and seems to enjoy his new buddies. I figured he came from a bare bottom tank from Gold's so putting him into another BB Q-tank wont hurt him much. Pics in another thread for ID purposes.

Sorry for rambling, I do have a question. How long do I maintain low salinity before starting the assent back up to the reguar levels?

Edit: never mind I found it.

[BCOrchidGuy]

I wonder if the Ich isn't present in the intestinal tracts of the fish that were exposed and or being treated for Ich. Possibly the Ich is passed out with some sort of digestive stress (fish runs) and the parasite is again present in the tank. Who knows, a lot of good information and insite here though. Thanks Lee, thanks Bev.

Doug

[bulletsworld]

Originally Posted by danny zubot

Wow Lee, I'm bummed out now. I really don't want the ick to return after this treatment, that would suck. Only time will tell I guess.

In your case, guessing by the severity of the infection and ALL your fish being infected, the mild rule of a little sprinkle of ick on the regal tang ONLY is NOT the case for you. Time is of the essence.

Originally Posted by danny zubot

The fish seem to be doing ok in the q-tank even though the white spots have gotten worse in the past day. My salinity is down to about 17 ppt from 31 ppt on Sunday afternoon when I started the treatment. Too fast?

Please tell me your using a refractometer ONLY to measure the salinity, as this is the safest method for measuring. Its not uncommon for the infection to grow while its resisting treatment. Ick doesn't like low salinity. The ick has to rupture to surface & fall off the fish. Your doing good though, but now you should wait for almost 24hrs before going to next step or you will come into big problems. Gradually lower the salinity gives not only the fish time to adjust to lower salinity but more importantly ensures the bacteria in the biological filter can adjust. Or else Ammonia spike and or PH drop.

Here is a great site of reference that you can keep referring back to while treatment that may also answer most of your questions.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

Questions it may not answer. The problem with lowering the salinity I have found is that if you don’t let the salinity & bacteria catch up at 17ppt (Wait approx 24hrs) and rush to next step it will kill your bacteria in your filter bed creating a massive spike in ammonia. YIKS! Hence the NEED to let it adjust slowly. I hate this part because the wait seems so long and while your waiting, your fish are in a small tank, all together, that’s bare bottom where the ick life cycle is reproducing & hosting easier from 3-7days. YIKS! Once you get down though to 1.010, you can wait a few hours before going to 1.009 and maintain that level for 6weeks, leaving your main tank fish free.

When will you see results ick gone? After you have dropped down to 1.009 and maintain that you should see results or completely gone in 10-14 days after treatment. But Leave the fish in there for remaining time, leaving your main tank fallow.

Originally Posted by danny zubot

I figured since I'm quarenteening (sp) every one, I'd go out and buy another fish and put him in there. (bad reef keeper I know) But its doin well and seems to enjoy his new buddies. I figured he came from a bare bottom tank from Gold's so putting him into another BB Q-tank wont hurt him much..

That’s where you’re wrong and I’ll tell you why. In the past I did this very thing to what I came to regret. Thinking I’m already treating all my fish in a QT tank with Hypo, but there was this other fish (porcupine puffer) I was eyeing so I got it to & figured since I’m doing treatment I might as well treat another & save time. DOH! WRONG!! Turns out while I was treating all the fish over a few weeks of treatment they showed no more signs of ick but their health was decreasing, pale in color, breathing became lethargic for some, a tang stop eating, starting doing a twitch, I couldn’t figure out what was going on. Turns out the fish I added (Porcupine Puffer) brought Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) in the QT tank. DOH! Before I knew what hit me I was losing fish. Hyposalinity doesn’t treat Marine Velvet but copper does. Because of my wrong judgement it cost me most of my livestock & I lost some of my favourite fishy friends. Was a very sad day for me. So as I learned, NEVER to ASSUME your new addition have NO disease. BETTER TO BE SAFE THEN SORRY. Because you added this fish, your treatment option would have been better to go with copper. Other factors to when adding another fish in your QT tank with the others is the increase of Bioload.. But since your already in process with Hyposalinity I will keep my fingers crossed for you.


Keep us updated. Here if you need any help.


P.S for your clown if heavily infected besides the other fish, I would consider a FW dip to relieve a bit of the ick. Worth a try. Also make sure your QT tank and or FW dip water are aerated well, try air stones, they work great. Also don't raise temperature during Hypo treatment, harder on fish & also water evaporates faster making it hard to keep the level of 1.009 for Hyposalinity to be effective. I keep temp at about 77-78 only.

[danny zubot]

Thanks Lee, good advice.
I am using a refractometer, got tired of the other crap a long time ago.
I'm not too worried about NH3 spike right now because the constant swap in water, but after I've reached 9ppt I'll watch my levels more. So tonight I'll bring it down to about 13 ppt then 10 and 9 tommorow.

[bulletsworld]

Good Stuff!


Sounds like your well on your way!



BYE BYE ICH!

(Hehe just love that emoticon)

[danny zubot]

[Beverly]

Have to disagree with Lee on the FW dips:

From Marine "Ich"
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

Are freshwater dips effective?

Freshwater dips are generally ineffective in the treatment of marine "Ich" infestations. Trophonts burrow deeply into the epithelium where they are generally protected from external influences. Colorni (1985) found that even after 18 hours in freshwater, infected fish still have trophonts attached in the same positions as they had held before the freshwater treatment. The trophonts later detached and completed their life cycle as normal.

Trophonts penetrate the epithelium which causes a loss in osmoregulatory capability. Infected fish are less able to cope with a sudden and drastic change in the ionic concentration of their environment. This is likely to cause further stress to the fish which will impair their ability to acquire immunity to the parasite.

Quoting Doug:

I wonder if the Ich isn't present in the intestinal tracts of the fish that were exposed and or being treated for Ich. Possibly the Ich is passed out with some sort of digestive stress (fish runs) and the parasite is again present in the tank.

I highly doubt it, but have not researched such a possibility. Marine ich is only an external parasite as far as I know. Why not ask Dr. Ron on RC for a more definitive answer?

[bulletsworld]

Originally Posted by danny zubot

[bulletsworld]

From Marine "Ich"
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

Are freshwater dips effective?

Freshwater dips are generally ineffective in the treatment of marine "Ich" infestations.

Infected fish are less able to cope with a sudden and drastic change in the ionic concentration of their environment. This is likely to cause further stress to the fish which will impair their ability to acquire immunity to the parasite.

Bev, I can agree with you on this one....

as its definitely NOT a treatment of riding Ich. I just hate doing FW dips too because it is something that is hard on the fish & stressful to watch. Temp & PH can be hard to match & I think the stress alone is more damaging then the little bit of ich that might fall off. I did find it only worked to rid very little ich, if the ich had surfaced and was mature enough that it was ready to fall off. Although every little bit helps I figure. I do agree there is pro's and con's to FW dips though and try to stay away from them unless worse case.

Good point Bev!