Experienced Fish Keeper, New 2 Salt & Reef

[bomb1977]

I have been keeping freshwater fish for ages, I breed and I have many nitrate neutral tanks that require only a small water change every 3-4 months. I feel like I have it mastered and I'm ready to cross over.

I have so much respect for saltwater reef tanks that I've always been afraid to attempt one before I felt I had the skill for one.

Anyways I am in the process of renovating my home and I'm currently working on the front and back yard, taking out eleveted flower beds and filling in a very large 20x40 foot pool in the backyard.

When the weather gets too cold to work outside, I switch back over to completing the gutting of my basement which I'm about 80% completed. Then I re-frame it, put down a floor, put up a celing and instal a water softener and RO/DI kit.

I'm planning on having a holding tank for RO/DI that will be pumped up to the kitchen sink. I could easily just order a second holding tank for RO/DI saltwater

I have a heavy, thick walled glass tank that I measured the volume to 125.8 gallons. The guys at the LHS that sold it to me for 2 bills told me it was a 120 high.

Question #1 - I'm planning on picking up a used tank off kijiji or craigslist for 50 bucks or less and making my own sump. I was thinking a 75 gallon or a 90 gallon...which would you suggest? I like the idea of the 90...more water to me has always equalled better stability.

Question #2 - My plan is to feed the water down out of the top left and top right corners via 1.25" PVC pipe and pump everything back up via a 1.5" to 2.0" PVC pipe. I plan on splitting the return to fire on 45 degree angles down and to the left and down and to the right from the middle back of the tank. Are these sizes correct? What would you advise?

Question #3 - My 75/90 Gallon sump. I'm planning on using the small pieces of live rock that don't really fit my plant in the first part. I would have the overflows feeding into this area with a sock to collect debris. Is foam filtration required also?

Qusetion #4 - My second chamber would be for my protein skimmer, I was thinking of something that will handle 200-250 gallons. Does that sound about right?

Question #5 - Then I would run a bubble trap with lexan or plexi glass, just like the other dividers into the final stage where I would have a subrersable pump that can run around 1000-1200 gph. Am I in the right ballpark?

Question #6 - Is a calcium reactor really required? Is it the easiest way to maintain calcium levels?

As for what goes in the tank...I'm in no rush. I plan on running the tank with just live rock and sand for quite a while just to make sure everything is good. I plan on a rock wall covering 80-85% of both the height and length of the tank with a cave and a buttload of corals. But I want to make sure everything is stable first.

My wife does want a pair of Nemo's But otherwise the creatures in the tank will serve the purpose of keeping my beautiful corals and frags healthy and happy

I plan on running 2 powerheads, one on each side. I'm not sure if I should run 2 big ones, or one big one and one medium one and alternate them.

I plan on using LED lights, I know that they cost an arm and a leg...but this is an expensive hobby

I am located in Hamilton, Ontario. I won't be starting the tank till the spring. It might not come together as fast as some of yours might, but I have nothing but time on my hands.

Thanks,

Kev

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by bomb1977

I have been keeping freshwater fish for ages, I breed and I have many nitrate neutral tanks that require only a small water change every 3-4 months. I feel like I have it mastered and I'm ready to cross over.

I have so much respect for saltwater reef tanks that I've always been afraid to attempt one before I felt I had the skill for one.

Anyways I am in the process of renovating my home and I'm currently working on the front and back yard, taking out eleveted flower beds and filling in a very large 20x40 foot pool in the backyard.

When the weather gets too cold to work outside, I switch back over to completing the gutting of my basement which I'm about 80% completed. Then I re-frame it, put down a floor, put up a celing and instal a water softener and RO/DI kit.

I'm planning on having a holding tank for RO/DI that will be pumped up to the kitchen sink. I could easily just order a second holding tank for RO/DI saltwater

I have a heavy, thick walled glass tank that I measured the volume to 125.8 gallons. The guys at the LHS that sold it to me for 2 bills told me it was a 120 high.

Question #1 - I'm planning on picking up a used tank off kijiji or craigslist for 50 bucks or less and making my own sump. I was thinking a 75 gallon or a 90 gallon...which would you suggest? I like the idea of the 90...more water to me has always equalled better stability.
im a fan of larger sumps, gives you room at add another tank in the future, and gives extra insurance:P
Question #2 - My plan is to feed the water down out of the top left and top right corners via 1.25" PVC pipe and pump everything back up via a 1.5" to 2.0" PVC pipe. I plan on splitting the return to fire on 45 degree angles down and to the left and down and to the right from the middle back of the tank. Are these sizes correct? What would you advise?

i would drill the tank and install an overflow box, syphon hoses are very risky imo

Question #3 - My 75/90 Gallon sump. I'm planning on using the small pieces of live rock that don't really fit my plant in the first part. I would have the overflows feeding into this area with a sock to collect debris. Is foam filtration required also?


no no foam is required, filter socks arnt even required.


Qusetion #4 - My second chamber would be for my protein skimmer, I was thinking of something that will handle 200-250 gallons. Does that sound about right?

personally i woull skim in my first chaamber and i would have my overflows empty into this chamber first

Question #5 - Then I would run a bubble trap with lexan or plexi glass, just like the other dividers into the final stage where I would have a subrersable pump that can run around 1000-1200 gph. Am I in the right ballpark?

for a 90g tank thats about right, really it depends on whats in your sump as for the amount of turnover you have

Question #6 - Is a calcium reactor really required? Is it the easiest way to maintain calcium levels?

def not necessary, although as you get into it you may find its actually quite handy , calcium depends on what the livestock uses in your system , fact is you may never have to dose calcium if you do not have alot of calcium requiring corals.

there are also lots of ways to do calcium besides a reactor.

As for what goes in the tank...I'm in no rush. I plan on running the tank with just live rock and sand for quite a while just to make sure everything is good. I plan on a rock wall covering 80-85% of both the height and length of the tank with a cave and a buttload of corals. But I want to make sure everything is stable first.smart thinking

My wife does want a pair of Nemo's But otherwise the creatures in the tank will serve the purpose of keeping my beautiful corals and frags healthy and happy on the right track with this thinking

I plan on running 2 powerheads, one on each side. I'm not sure if I should run 2 big ones, or one big one and one medium one and alternate them. flow like calcium is going to depend on what corals and other livestock you have. its safe to say start out with 2 and go from there.

I plan on using LED lights, I know that they cost an arm and a leg...but this is an expensive hobby led is the way to go friend:P

I am located in Hamilton, Ontario. I won't be starting the tank till the spring. It might not come together as fast as some of yours might, but I have nothing but time on my hands.

Thanks,

Kev

good luck

[Proteus]

your on the right track. my only suggestion is like denny said install overflow box and read up on different styles of drains. personally im a bean animal fan. dead quite and multiple fail safes.

second is the sump regardless of size i prefer wide and shallow. i recently took a 75 gallon torn it apart. took the glass to the glass shop and had them cut 8" off the height. it turned out to be 55g or so after i rebuilt it

i ran a 180g mixed reef without a reactor. there are pros and cons so its up to you. i did biweekly wc and manually dosed ca mg and kh



btw take the jump. i could never seem to keep fw. i tried multiple cichlid tanks without luck. tried saltwater did my reserch and bam im hooked like its crack

[MKLKT]

Since you have the time still, I'd recommend reading up on setting up new tanks and how each piece of equipment functions. From that base you can decide how you want to run your tank because every system is very different, lots of different opinions as well as differences in livestock which will have different requirements. You sound like someone who will be responsible and patient with it which is a huge plus. It's very addictive, I'm warning you.

For example, I personally really like using a filter sock on the overflow. I also highly recommend having a drilled tank for reliability and esthetic sense, especially since you don't even have it yet. Shorter sump is good, but remember to get one that can handle its own water + any backflow that will come down from the tank when the return pump is off.

I also recommend really researching which pieces of equipment you buy, otherwise if you buy the "cheap" starter stuff you'll want to replace it within a year and all you've done is wasted cash, and it's tough to re-sell the junkier pieces. Try to connect with other people locally who have tanks and they can demo how theirs runs and you might make a friend who can help you out in a pinch.

[bomb1977]

All good advice.

I'm still doing a lot of reading on how the items involved work. I'm currently reading up on protein skimmers and how they work. I actually can't believe that such a simple device is so expensive.

It seems like a 2 litre pop bottle with the bottom cut out of it and a wooden airstone or two with a tube out the top draining into a collection cup would do the same job for about $25 bucks. But that's just my initial thought after a few hours of reading.

As for the calcium reactor, I will back burner that and add my calcium and alkaline manually in the beginning. If I find I need heavy and frequent dosing, an auto doser seems like the way to go.

I like the idea of a computer controlling my lights and powerheads, but the rest just seems like overkill to me at this point.

Quick background on me...

Age 19-27 - I was a Tool and Die Maker for a major Auto Manufacturer
Age 28-33 - I was a Corporate Sales Rep in the Downtown Core (Toronto)
Age 34-Today (35) - I run a company in West Hamilton with about 12 employees

So I can build things and I have the ability to bring things in wholesale also. I'm hoping to do this for my live rock and corals to save some money.

But I also have an excellent relationship with all of the local fish stores from my days as a cichlid breeder. I know the big guys within big al's at Hamilton and Oakville. The Oakville guys just moved to Mississauga. So I'm hoping I can use those connections too

I think I'm going to end up using 250-350 pounds of live rock for my wall, cave and in my sump. I might order what I need, or I might order in 500-1000 pounds to get a lower price and pass on the savings to other people I know in the hobby

I did try the HDAS, but they just aren't my kind of people. I'm an ex jock that would rather do things than sit around and talk about doing things

Hopefully I can meet up with some local people and put together some group buys. I don't mind using my company as a front to get wholesale pricing What? The tank is going in my home office That's a write off

[DAVE]

I think you have been given some very good advice so far.

Good luck and keep asking questions.

Dave

[bomb1977]

Opinions on LED lights, I seem to want to go that way.

I have been using a combination of 6700k/8000k and 10000k T8 bulbs for my live plants with freshwater. I understand 10k to be the minimum for reefs, where 10k is the max for freshwater.

I have 2 options infront of me. Please tell me if they will give me more than enough light, if they suck or even if they are just a waste of money.

2 of these...($280 each)

Fixture Size: 59.00" x 9.25" x 1.25" (Add 0.65" in height with bracket installed)

LEDs Count: 80
10800 Lumens
Super energy efficient 3 watt high output LEDs
64x 10,000K LED
16x Actinic 460nm LED
Use 240 watts

or 3 these...($175 each)

Fixture Size: 58.50" x 5.00" x 1.00" (Add 0.65" in height with bracket installed)

LEDs Count: 44
5940 Lumens
Super energy efficient 3 watt high output LEDs
34x 10,000K LED
10x Actinic 460nm LED
Use 132 watts

Do I need to go with a higher K rating? I want to be able to keep any coral that I see and like. I don't want to be held back because of my lighting.

Thanks, you guys are awesome!

[Myka]

Originally Posted by bomb1977

I have been keeping freshwater fish for ages, I breed and I have many nitrate neutral tanks that require only a small water change every 3-4 months. I feel like I have it mastered and I'm ready to cross over.

The nitrifying bacteria work the same way in saltwater tanks as they do in freshwater, except that the way we design our reek tanks generally doesn't have enough plant matter to denitrate entirely. So we employ protein skimmers that remove dissolved organics before they break down, plus we change out filter media at least once a week so collected organics won't break down, and we don't use biological type filter media. These are the main differences when it comes to the nitrogen cycle. It's all about limiting organics before they become nitrate.

I have so much respect for saltwater reef tanks that I've always been afraid to attempt one before I felt I had the skill for one.

You don't need skill, just observation and patience.

I'm planning on having a holding tank for RO/DI that will be pumped up to the kitchen sink. I could easily just order a second holding tank for RO/DI saltwater

You could also use such things as 55 gallon drums or other such barrels to hold RO/DI water. You will need a mixing barrel for mixing up saltwater too. You can use a pump to pump it up to your tank.

I have a heavy, thick walled glass tank that I measured the volume to 125.8 gallons. The guys at the LHS that sold it to me for 2 bills told me it was a 120 high.

120 high? How tall is it? Standard 120s are 48x24x24".

Question #1 - I'm planning on picking up a used tank off kijiji or craigslist for 50 bucks or less and making my own sump. I was thinking a 75 gallon or a 90 gallon...which would you suggest? I like the idea of the 90...more water to me has always equalled better stability.

I would pick the 75 because the shorter the tank the easier it is to get into it to mess around. A 90 is 24" deep and that's a long way down. Plus, the skimmer will probably only want to be in 10" of water max.

Question #2 - My plan is to feed the water down out of the top left and top right corners via 1.25" PVC pipe and pump everything back up via a 1.5" to 2.0" PVC pipe. I plan on splitting the return to fire on 45 degree angles down and to the left and down and to the right from the middle back of the tank. Are these sizes correct? What would you advise?

I think you would be better off not using 1.25" piping at all since fittings that size can be difficult to locate, or are much more limited than those found in the 1" or 1.5" sizes. Always, always, always have bigger drain lines than return lines. For a 120-gallon system I would suggest a single drain and a Herbie style overflow. They are deadly silent, but much easier to install on a single drain system. No need for 2 drains on a 120 imo. I would also suggest just a single return line. For your first tank I would really suggest the KISS method...Keep It Simple Silly!!!

For this system I would look at using a 1.5" drain and a 1" return line with a pump capable of about 700-1000 gph after head loss. Ask if you don't know what head loss is. The "perfect" flow through the sump is 6.1x turnover (total system volume times 6.1) which means 99% of the system's volume will pass through the sump every 24 hours.

Flow within the tank will be achieved by using powerheads. A sump's return pump is for circulating the water through the sump for filtration purposes, the job of the return pump is not for providing main flow in the display tank. Too much flow through the sump will cause microbubbles in the display tank which looks awful and can irritate corals.

Question #3 - My 75/90 Gallon sump. I'm planning on using the small pieces of live rock that don't really fit my plant in the first part. I would have the overflows feeding into this area with a sock to collect debris. Is foam filtration required also?

You can use flat polyester filter media if you want, but there is no reason if you are using filter socks. Filter media must always be either thrown out or washed in the washine machine at least once a week.

Qusetion #4 - My second chamber would be for my protein skimmer, I was thinking of something that will handle 200-250 gallons. Does that sound about right?

It really depends on the brand of skimmer, some manufacturers really are quite optimistic about their skimmers' performance! I would suggest you spend a fair chunk of money here as a lesser quality skimmer will make it more difficult for you to achieve a beautiful reef tank. There are many reef tanks out there with poor skimmers, or no skimmers at all, but it is much easier to produce a beautiful reef tank with a workhorse skimmer helping you out. Some reaosnably-priced brands I personally like are EuroReef (noisy though), Vertex, SWC, Skimz. Most of these skimmers will run around the $350-500 mark for the appropriate size.

Question #5 - Then I would run a bubble trap with lexan or plexi glass, just like the other dividers into the final stage where I would have a subrersable pump that can run around 1000-1200 gph. Am I in the right ballpark?

Answered above. Don't forget head loss.

Question #6 - Is a calcium reactor really required? Is it the easiest way to maintain calcium levels?

Calcium reactors are getting less popular than they were 10 years ago. They can also cause low pH problems because of the use of CO2. I don't like calcium reactors, and much prefer dosers. I have been using my "Drew's Dosers" on digital timers from www.bulkreefsupply.com for over 3 years now and have found them to be very economical. I have had no issues with the dosers, and for the price I think you really can't beat them. You really only need 3 dosers as magnesium isn't used up overly fast you can just add a week's worth to your waterchange water. Two dosers from BRS plus timers plus a couple Rubbermaid containers to hold the fluid will run about $200, where the fancy digital standalone units will run about $500. You won't need dosers right away though.

As for what goes in the tank...I'm in no rush. I plan on running the tank with just live rock and sand for quite a while just to make sure everything is good. I plan on a rock wall covering 80-85% of both the height and length of the tank with a cave and a buttload of corals. But I want to make sure everything is stable first.

I would re-think the rock wall idea. For one, they aren't visually appealing. For two, it is difficult to get good flow patterns in tank with so much rock. Without good flow, detritus will settle behind the rocks and will break down causing nitrate problems. I would suggest you plan to fill much less of the tank with rock, and put rock in the sump if you feel you need more. I also suggest that you keep the rock from touching any of the glass sides as this will make cleaning the tank much easier.

I plan on running 2 powerheads, one on each side. I'm not sure if I should run 2 big ones, or one big one and one medium one and alternate them.

Depends on what types of corals you want to keep. LPS and softie corals want much less flow than SPS corals. You can always add more flow later. SPS are better left for when you have a bit more experience anyway as they are more challenging to keep alive and colorful. For LPS and softie tanks think 20-40x turnover just using powerheads (not inc return pump, only inc display volume), so that's about 2400-4800 gph for powerheads. SPS corals are quite happy with 60-100x turnover. My favourite combination is 2 larger powerheads and one slightly smaller one for 48" tanks.

I plan on using LED lights, I know that they cost an arm and a leg...but this is an expensive hobby

If your tank is indeed 24" deep you could always start off with a 6 or 8-bulb T5HO fixture like those made by Sunlight Supply which are reasonably priced. This fixture would be plenty of light for LPS and softie corals. It is my preferred lighting for LPS. For SW most people prefer 13,000 to 22,000K lighting. Corals need a fair amount of blue light for best color production.

I'm not yet keen on LED lighting for many reasons, but three key points:

1) New models are coming out very often with significant changes making last models obsolete. I'm not keen on spending thousands of dollars and having an obsolete fixture in 2 yrs or less.
2) I think the price is too high when compared to other options.
3) As long as you have air conditioning in the house heat shouldn't be an issue if you have an open top tank even when using halides.

Also, check out the link in my signature to my maintenance article called "Mucking About with Mindy: The Detritus Wars" that will have lots of maintenance tips I think you would give you lots to think about in your design.

Cheers!
Mindy