NH3 vs NH4+

[Invigor]

what's the difference between NH3 and NH4+ other than one more H atom? Assumingly they're both bad news in a tank, but how is ammonium created vs how ammonia is? how does it convert? in a bag of fish it would be NH3, which is "temporarily" non-toxic, yet adding tank water to the bag would be catastrophic as it would change to NH4+?

can someone help me clarify this confusion?

[Beverly]

The only way I know of to change toxic ammonia to non-toxic ammonium is to add a product such as Prime or Amquel to the water. As far as I know, the same bacteria that eats ammonia also eats ammonium and converts both to nitrite.

[Invigor]

so I guess it bonds with it to form a new molecule altogether...so there's not even any NH4+ produced from it...I like prime, it's amazingly powerful stuff.

It also seems that Prime's ability to detoxify nitrites and nitrates was a fluke...neat.

[Beverly]

Cool graphic

I kinda don't believe Prime detoxifies nitrite and nitrate. Would like to see a graphic, or the chemical equation, showing how it does that too.

[Invigor]

Q: How does Prime make a difference in reducing Nitrates?
A: The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.

I'll continue looking for a pic or some chemical equation..I know amquel+ boasts detoxifying nitrates as well...

[Beverly]

Originally Posted by Invigor

however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high.

Geez, I hope folks reading this will not stop doing regular and frequent water changes in their tanks to reduce nitrate Doing water changes does many more things in a tank other than reducing nitrate.

Originally Posted by Invigor

We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.

Still, imo, this is anectodatal evidence and not pure scientific proof. I guess I could take some water from one of my tanks, test it for nitrate, add some Prime, then test again for nitrate to satisfy my own curisousity.

Thanks for taking the time to look into this, Invigor

[Invigor]

I think I'm going to try someone in the chemisty faculty at school to see if anyone's doing their masters or PhD on something water related...chances are I'll have to goto UVic..

I'm taking biochem so I can make fish stuff and work for seachem or something like that...that would be super cool.

I'll continue study on this and become educated with the chemisty of fish tanks..

[Beverly]

Okay, just finished my testing.

Equipment:

- Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freshwater/Saltwater Nitrate test kit
- two test tubes filled with 5 ml of water from my 120g reef, one with no Prime, one with two drops of Prime added to sample and sample mixed well before adding AP chemicals

Did the testing as per instructions.

Outcome:

- in the non-Prime sample nitrate was 5 ppm
- in the 2 drops of Prime sample nitrate was 0 ppm

Hmm..... Interesting. Still going to do frequent, regular water changes to keep nitrate in check. Have no idea what long term effects of overdosing Prime in my tanks and don't want to mess around when I don't know what the heck I'm doing

Invigor, you go for it, man!

[Invigor]

THEORETICALLY speaking..if it breaks NO3 down into it's components nitrogen and oxygen, provided they're not dissolved...they should be released with the gas exchange.. I'm not sure how it would break down in regards to ionic charges..maybe it breaks into nitrogen and ozone?? whooo knowwwws, I'll ask my chem lab instructor..I'll bring him the chemical formula for amquel and ask him what he thinks would happen if it were mixed with NH3, NO2 and NO3...

cool results on your own test! too bad you can't put the reaction in slow motion and watch all the atoms!

[Beverly]

Originally Posted by Invigor

too bad you can't put the reaction in slow motion and watch all the atoms!

Flunked out of Chem 10 once I saw the complexity of the Periodic Table, so I wouldn't know a chemical reaction if I saw one. I only know about some of the VERY basic chemistry that happens in our tanks. Otherwise, I'm a complete dummy But can a person really see chemical reactions on an atomic level with the right equipment? (This is probably the most stupid question anyone has ever asked )

On a related note, I was reading a newspaper story on The Pioneer Anomaly and they mentioned String Theory. So I began researching sub-atomic particles and string theory over the past few days. This stuff is waaaaaaay outta my league I do know what gluons do, though