Thoughts on over skimming

[sphelps]

Anyone have experience on over skimmed tanks? I'm starting to think my tank is being over skimmed as I'm noticing a decline in some LPS coral health. SPS corals are doing well with good color but LPS corals like acans, brains and lobos are beginning to suffer. I've always noticed that LPS corals do better in tanks with more organics and SPS corals are the opposite. In order to find a healthy balance I'm considering running my skimmer on a timer to only skim overnight.

Any thought or experience would be helpful. I run a BK SM 250 on a 120 gallon system.

[Myka]

Do you have any remaining nuisance algae?

I have noticed on tanks that I considered to be over-skimmed that coralline, pods, and micro-inverts (like spirodid worms, mini feather dusters, etc) all but died off. I have also noticed that it's difficult to keep SPS and LPS in the same tank and have them all equally healthy and bright without fairly heavy feeding. Do you feed the corals any meaty foods or additives like Zeo or Fauna Marin? I have really noticed an improvement in LPS since I started using Coral Vitalizer and Sponge Power.

I'm going to go over to the Zeo forums and ask a similar question as I've been meaning to for awhile. As I have gotten quite quickly into SPS lately (since my lights were burning the LPS) I have been getting more and more into Zeo and I worry about the future of the currently healthy LPS due to the forthcoming ultra low nutrient system. I will report back if you'd like.

[StirCrazy]

I severly overskim my tanks and got fantastic results, remember if you are over skimming you have to pay closer attention to your water peramiters, and make sure your compensate your feeding, ie feed more often or feed more as good skimming will remove waist food faster.

I had LPS and SPS, worms, Pods. which thrived in my overskimmed tanks, and had to scrape coraline algae off the glass every day, so I don't think overskiming is your problem as much as water peramiters/light/ect.

My Brain grew from a 3" base to a 6" base in about 6 months, mushroom became such a problem I had to remove them as they were taking over, and SPS gave me amazing growth rates.. all while using a skimmer that was probably rated for 6X the system volume of water. I ran the skimmer so it made a fairly dry foam, ran a Co2 reactor, Kalk reactor, sever water flow (aprox 120X turnover) but I did run a slightly elivated Alk, I liked 1.026 for salinity, 11 to 12Dkh, about 380 to 400 Ca, 1400 Mg, and my Ph was always around 7.9 I ran two AB 10K SE bulbs driven by M80 ballasts on a 3 foot tank plus two 3 foot VHO actinic bulbs overdriven about 14%. the tank was bare bottom, but I built Pod piles behind the rock work. I find the bigest mistake people make is not building pod piles as this gives them a place to grow with out worry of preditation. I had two mandrins and they always were eating pods which I feel was due to the pod piles as they mandrens can't get into them, so the pods can reproduce like mad and as the populatin increases they spread through out the tank.

Steve

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

I severly overskim my tanks and got fantastic results, remember if you are over skimming you have to pay closer attention to your water peramiters, and make sure your compensate your feeding, ie feed more often or feed more as good skimming will remove waist food faster.

I had LPS and SPS, worms, Pods. which thrived in my overskimmed tanks, and had to scrape coraline algae off the glass every day, so I don't think overskiming is your problem as much as water peramiters/light/ect.

My Brain grew from a 3" base to a 6" base in about 6 months, mushroom became such a problem I had to remove them as they were taking over, and SPS gave me amazing growth rates.. all while using a skimmer that was probably rated for 6X the system volume of water. I ran the skimmer so it made a fairly dry foam, ran a Co2 reactor, Kalk reactor, sever water flow (aprox 120X turnover) but I did run a slightly elivated Alk, I liked 1.026 for salinity, 11 to 12Dkh, about 380 to 400 Ca, 1400 Mg, and my Ph was always around 7.9 I ran two AB 10K SE bulbs driven by M80 ballasts on a 3 foot tank plus two 3 foot VHO actinic bulbs overdriven about 14%. the tank was bare bottom, but I built Pod piles behind the rock work. I find the bigest mistake people make is not building pod piles as this gives them a place to grow with out worry of preditation. I had two mandrins and they always were eating pods which I feel was due to the pod piles as they mandrens can't get into them, so the pods can reproduce like mad and as the populatin increases they spread through out the tank.

Steve

What water parameters are you referring to? Anything I can test seems fine and I do 10% weekly water changes with RB salt. I don't have heavy light in my tank and I keep my LPS lower or in shady areas. The LPS did fine at first but lately a decrease in health in some is obvious.

From my experience higher nutrients results in healthier LPS, my first reef tank was an LPS tank, basically skimmerless and I never fed them, never have I had LPS corals as healthy as they were in that tank.



I'm willing to sacrifice some SPS color for healthier LPS, i would actually prefer to keep a more LPS dominant tank. Can any one see any potential problems resulting from running a skimmer on a half duty cycle over night?

[mr.wilson]

Low nutrient levels will cause a decline in LPS health, but it is not necessarily caused by your protein skimmer. It is more likely an issue tied to nutrient export such as water changes, algae harvesting, and other chemical filtration methods like carbon and ion exchange resins.

LPS & SPS don't readily mix in nature, so our expectations are generally over-optimistic when it comes to a mixed captive reef. Target feeding may be the only compromise of supply and demand.

There is some debate whether or not carbon is the limiting factor for coral health and growth. My guess is that carbon dosing fosters the growth of microorganisms that feed corals and consume nutrients, rather than bacteria that consume nutrients.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Low nutrient levels will cause a decline in LPS health, but it is not necessarily caused by your protein skimmer. It is more likely an issue tied to nutrient export such as water changes, algae harvesting, and other chemical filtration methods like carbon and ion exchange resins.

LPS & SPS don't readily mix in nature, so our expectations are generally over-optimistic when it comes to a mixed captive reef. Target feeding may be the only compromise of supply and demand.

There is some debate whether or not carbon is the limiting factor for coral health and growth. My guess is that carbon dosing fosters the growth of microorganisms that feed corals and consume nutrients, rather than bacteria that consume nutrients.

Well i don't run carbon so would you consider running the skimmer at 0.5 duty, cutting water changes to 5% weekly and preventing algae growth a good initial approach to the problem?

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by sphelps

I don't have heavy light in my tank and I keep my LPS lower or in shady areas. The LPS did fine at first but lately a decrease in health in some is obvious.

From my experience higher nutrients results in healthier LPS, my first reef tank was an LPS tank, basically skimmerless and I never fed them, never have I had LPS corals as healthy as they were in that tank.


I'm willing to sacrifice some SPS color for healthier LPS, i would actually prefer to keep a more LPS dominant tank. Can any one see any potential problems resulting from running a skimmer on a half duty cycle over night?

the first thing that pops out to me is "I don`t have heavy light in my tank".

the reason this is jumping out at me is you have to think of LPS like SPS but more flesh. yes they will do good under low light if they are fed, but when you are skimming heavily how are they getting fed? when you have intense lighting just like a SPS they will expell symbiotic algae as they don't need as many to create food for them other wise they need food by being fed directly or by adsorbing it from the water colum.. if you don't target feed frequently, or like dirty water then you need enough light to sustain them. take my open brain as an example.. when I was running PS and VHO he was about 3" dia at the base (6" when expanded) and would eat 1 or 2 krill a day as I upgraded the lighting he started taking less food then it got to the point I could put mysis all over him and he wouldn't feed, but he kept growing and getting more color. when I had the tank melt down (heater got stuck on in a temp tank when I was removing the sand bed) he had a skeliton of 6 to 7" dia and would be almost 14" when expanded but he hadn't taken food in over 6 months. I could only conclude that he was getting all the food he needed from his internal algae and the lights.

so would I recomend overskimming with lower light power.. nope, you want crystal clean water you need plenty of light power.

Steve

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

the first thing that pops out to me is "I don`t have heavy light in my tank".

the reason this is jumping out at me is you have to think of LPS like SPS but more flesh. yes they will do good under low light if they are fed, but when you are skimming heavily how are they getting fed? when you have intense lighting just like a SPS they will expell symbiotic algae as they don't need as many to create food for them other wise they need food by being fed directly or by adsorbing it from the water colum.. if you don't target feed frequently, or like dirty water then you need enough light to sustain them. take my open brain as an example.. when I was running PS and VHO he was about 3" dia at the base (6" when expanded) and would eat 1 or 2 krill a day as I upgraded the lighting he started taking less food then it got to the point I could put mysis all over him and he wouldn't feed, but he kept growing and getting more color. when I had the tank melt down (heater got stuck on in a temp tank when I was removing the sand bed) he had a skeliton of 6 to 7" dia and would be almost 14" when expanded but he hadn't taken food in over 6 months. I could only conclude that he was getting all the food he needed from his internal algae and the lights.

so would I recomend overskimming with lower light power.. nope, you want crystal clean water you need plenty of light power.

Steve

I've experimented with a few of my LPS and moved them in brighter light and they would show signs of bleaching and when moved back into lower light would color back up. I think the problem is beyond lighting. It's not heavy lighting but it's not dim either; 2 x 250W DE 14K Phoenix run on HQI and two 54W 22K T5s.

Steve what are you using for a skimmer and what size tank and bio-load? Maybe you're not over skimming as much as me, my bio-load is quite small, 5 fish and I also have 3 large clams (not that there necessarily doing much nutrient export). My skimmer is rated for 250-750 gallon aquariums, having a larger skimmer is good but I'm starting to think mine is just too big.

[sphelps]

Originally Posted by Myka

Do you have any remaining nuisance algae?

I have noticed on tanks that I considered to be over-skimmed that coralline, pods, and micro-inverts (like spirodid worms, mini feather dusters, etc) all but died off. I have also noticed that it's difficult to keep SPS and LPS in the same tank and have them all equally healthy and bright without fairly heavy feeding. Do you feed the corals any meaty foods or additives like Zeo or Fauna Marin? I have really noticed an improvement in LPS since I started using Coral Vitalizer and Sponge Power.

I'm going to go over to the Zeo forums and ask a similar question as I've been meaning to for awhile. As I have gotten quite quickly into SPS lately (since my lights were burning the LPS) I have been getting more and more into Zeo and I worry about the future of the currently healthy LPS due to the forthcoming ultra low nutrient system. I will report back if you'd like.

I do have a few kinds macro algae kicking around still, but nothing serious. I don't really have much that eats it though but it is slowly decreasing. For the most part this algae is limited to the back pane and a small section of rock at the front of the tank. The rest of the rock is bare with no forms of algae. Coraline is very limited, I maintain a lower Ca (400) and Alk (8) than most and I've avoided introducing coraline as I'm not a huge fan, it's hard to clean and can become overwhelming. Pod population is good but the other stuff is limited, the tank is still fairly new and the rock was cleaned and re-cured from my previous setup so the transfer was also limited.

I do feed some meaty foods from time to time and I probably should be more aggressive but I've found lately that feeding tentacles are not showing up as often. Also some LPS corals are still doing well, such as dendo, chalice, trumpet, duncan, and closed brains. I try to avoid those power foods and I think they tend to do more harm than good but would be willing to use them again if results would improve. I definitely would consider dosing some zeo products again like LPS amino but currently I'm not dosing anything of the sort and would prefer to find the root of the problem first and then add certain things for further improvement.

If you do post on Zeo and get some relative information please let me know and send me a link. That would be much appreciated.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by sphelps

I do have a few kinds macro algae kicking around still, but nothing serious. I don't really have much that eats it though but it is slowly decreasing. For the most part this algae is limited to the back pane and a small section of rock at the front of the tank. The rest of the rock is bare with no forms of algae. Coraline is very limited, I maintain a lower Ca (400) and Alk (8) than most and I've avoided introducing coraline as I'm not a huge fan, it's hard to clean and can become overwhelming. Pod population is good but the other stuff is limited, the tank is still fairly new and the rock was cleaned and re-cured from my previous setup so the transfer was also limited.

I do feed some meaty foods from time to time and I probably should be more aggressive but I've found lately that feeding tentacles are not showing up as often. Also some LPS corals are still doing well, such as dendo, chalice, trumpet, duncan, and closed brains. I try to avoid those power foods and I think they tend to do more harm than good but would be willing to use them again if results would improve. I definitely would consider dosing some zeo products again like LPS amino but currently I'm not dosing anything of the sort and would prefer to find the root of the problem first and then add certain things for further improvement.

If you do post on Zeo and get some relative information please let me know and send me a link. That would be much appreciated.

I maintain calcium and alkinity only slightly higher than you...I don't think that would be any issue at all. You're still very close to NSW.

Not seeing feeding tentacles is definitely a poor sign. Ime, the LPS that aren't putting out their feeders are the ones that are past the point of being hungry and are now starving. Of course there could be other reasons too, but I really think you need to feed them more. I actually haven't tried the Zeo AA LPS yet...I keep forgetting about that one.

Where you said "power" did you mean "powder"? If so, I wouldn't bother. I think those powdered foods are great for polluting the tank and not much more. However, I do like to use Coral Frenzy when my Favia has all its tentacles out I will mix a very small amount of CF with saltwater and let it soak for 10 mins so it doesn't float, then turkey baste it over the Favia's tentacles. It seems to appreciate that, but I don't do that very often.

I put a post on Zeo forums, but there is only one reply so far, and it suggests no issues: http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18221