Funny thing about the LFS and the "relinquiesh the CITES" comment

[wickedfrags]

Some may recognize the quote below from a thread earlier today.

Funny thing - I bough some corals off this guy about a year or so back (he sells corals out of BC). Interestingly - I specifically asked him for a copy of the CITES so I could apply for a re-export permit to the US. The answer was no.

Wonder why that was??? Apparently all vendors should just be willing to give these out...yet you would not. What a piece of work bringing this back up - seems as though your ethics have not changed at all.

For those reading, go ask your LFS for a copy of the CITES next time you buy a couple corals and see what they tell you.

Originally Posted by R.A.D.

Well....I'm sure that for any potential business from me, you could somehow persuade your LFS to relinquiesh the CITES for me to veryify...otherwise how would I know? I am just basing my purchase on your honesty that the corals were imported legally.

Could I call DFO to visit your LFS so that they can verify the CITES authenticity before I make a purchase?

Could you kindly ask your LFS if this would be a possibility?

Thanks.

[Aquattro]

Dave, I'm not sure I understand the point here....

If you have battles with other suppliers, please take it offline.

[wickedfrags]

Ok let me explain.

I want to clarify to all those who read the previous thread that it is in no way reasonable for a hobbyist to expect th LFS to expect to just hand out such a permit. Heck - even a Canadian wholesaler/re-seller will not provide you with that!

If anyone for any reason felt that this was reasonable, and perhaps chose to order through an online company that could provide such a document as they import directly from overseas (and there are some) - well this could mean money out of my pocket. Unfair in my opinion - just wanted to clear that up!

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Dave, I'm not sure I understand the point here....

If you have battles with other suppliers, please take it offline.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by wickedfrags.com

Ok let me explain.

I want to clarify to all those who read the previous thread that it is in no way reasonable for a hobbyist to expect th LFS to expect to just hand out such a permit. Heck - even a Canadian wholesaler/re-seller will not provide you with that!

If anyone for any reason felt that this was reasonable, and perhaps chose to order through an online company that could provide such a document as they import directly from overseas (and there are some) - well this could mean money out of my pocket. Unfair in my opinion - just wanted to clear that up!

Yes Dave, I agree it's not a reasonable request to see these documents. However, I have a copy of a note where you asked for the same documents.
I'm really getting annoyed with this whole topic Dave, and these posts are getting old. Please just give it a rest.

[Scythanith]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

Yes Dave, I agree it's not a reasonable request to see these documents. However, I have a copy of a note where you asked for the same documents.
I'm really getting annoyed with this whole topic Dave, and these posts are getting old. Please just give it a rest.

So you don't think it's fair to ask for proof of lineage? This is about lineage corals, not just ordinary corals after all isn't it?

I know your personal stance Aquattro, you don't care where it comes from, if you like it you buy it. That's your personal view on the topic and far be it from me to try and change your mind! But some people would like to see a "paper trail" to prove lineage. And they will ask for it from any retailer trying to sell it as such.

There is no winning this battle for either side.

[24storm]

I think that the lineage info is important in this situation when you are going to buying something that is branded Tyree or ORA.

I have followed all these thread and i think they are very important and that some of these questions should be answered.

If things are found to be done illegally in the extreme case this could effect all of us who keep coral in our tanks.

There will be people who are not interested in hearing anything about any of this and there will be others who will be very interested and passionate about the situation. I think that the first thread would have been good to have around as it posed alot of good questions in it.

Originally Posted by Scythanith

So you don't think it's fair to ask for proof of lineage? This is about lineage corals, not just ordinary corals after all isn't it?

I know your personal stance Aquattro, you don't care where it comes from, if you like it you buy it. That's your personal view on the topic and far be it from me to try and change your mind! But some people would like to see a "paper trail" to prove lineage. And they will ask for it from any retailer trying to sell it as such.

There is no winning this battle for either side.

[Scythanith]

I have asked my LFS for CITES permits from shipments and they don't receive the CITES from their wholesaler. Instead, the LFS was nice enough to provide me with the contact information of one of his suppliers who I contacted nd delt with them directly. This obviously isn't the norm, but they know I'm not trying to steal a supplier, just applying for re-export CITES for various corals.

I wish the laws were different. I have spent many hours speaking with the DFO, Environment Canada and a few other organizations to convince them that aqua-cultured corals aren't the same as even mari-cultured stock. It's easier to shoot a polar bear and get it from Canada to the USA than to get an aqua-cultured frag across the border.

p.s. 1000 posts Dave, congrats lol!

[paddyob]

I may have missed it, but has anyone considered the amount of frag ops out there, and how far back the original cites May be from? i sell the occasional frag, or trade them. do i need to provide this as well. there definately would be cost implications. i do agree it needs to be perhaps more readily available, but where would it stop. CITES Are applied for and granted or denied. are you willing to pay for it with every purchase. like previously mentioned, a purebred Dog, pay for papers.

[wickedfrags]

I point no fingers - I simply ask the questions. My 5 years of university and pending acceptance for my post graduate for my MHSc likely places me at or above comparable level to the CITES officers. Maybe not - lets be honest that is irrelevant. I can be disagreeable - but I wanted something from them

Well how many Tyree frags would you like to buy form me then???? I can provide the same info as others selling them in Canada - I got some skilz with the camera!

I can't help be think back to the day when some got worked by the big box stores - problem with algae? Buy this UV unit. Corals not go growing, buy this supplement. Why is livestock any different. I can give more than 10 different reasons your corals will not look the way they should...I don't care for those who may chose to take advantage of those who do not know any better.

Originally Posted by albert_dao

What the hell does that even mean? This is fluff. If I was a vendor and you came along to ask me how I went about with my due processes, I'd tell you where you could shove it. The fact that you were not able to obtain the processes could be a sum total of many factors including the questions you asked, your relationship with the Fish & Wildlife officers, how nice you were to the receptionist, the way the stars lined up and whatever else happened in tandem with your inquiry. It's hardly excusable that such as, you feel the need to bully it from another vendor on a public forum.

CITES is just a piece of paper required to import. Anyone with a business license can get one (I have three available - I paid for them, but I am not interested in using them). We are discussing re-exporting corals known to originate from the US - this requires a re-export permit which is MUCH more complex.

Originally Posted by paddyob

I may have missed it, but has anyone considered the amount of frag ops out there, and how far back the original cites May be from? i sell the occasional frag, or trade them. do i need to provide this as well. there definately would be cost implications. i do agree it needs to be perhaps more readily available, but where would it stop. CITES Are applied for and granted or denied. are you willing to pay for it with every purchase. like previously mentioned, a purebred Dog, pay for papers.

[paddyob]

You have three business licences or CITES? If the latter, my old employer needed one for every piece collected, every time. said would apply for 300, and have half approved. just not sure i understand fully. sorry if i dont follow completely, but i guess i would like to understand as this is a major issue it seems. basically the issue... asking for proof and dealer refusing?