Question for electricians

Delphinus · #1 10-03-2009, 07:54 AM

Is it a no-no to use 14 gauge stranded wire for the purpose of wiring plugs and/or switches? Ie., does it have to be 14 gauge solid? ... Or is all that matters about the wire is that it be 14 gauge?

thanks!

banditpowdercoat · #2 10-03-2009, 12:12 PM

The purpose of stranded is Flexibility. It is more expensive than solid, thats why solid is used in home wiring. In the industrial setting, I allways use stranded wire of some form. Just remember, you need a Sta-Kon, preferably the fork style to affix the wire to the duplex receptical. the stranded does not stay under the screw that well and could come out, causing a short. Heres a pic, although, for 14AWG, you will want blue colored ones. Yellow is for 12AWG, and red is for 18-16AWG

Now, the extension cord ends, they are made for stranded. The screw has a metal piece with it, that acctually clamps the wire, so no need to worry about the Sta-Kon's with cord ends.

KrazyKuch · #3 10-03-2009, 03:07 PM

Yeah What Dan Said!!!!

Delphinus · #4 10-03-2009, 03:32 PM

Ok .. cool. So code doesn't say I *have* to use solid?

Here's the problem. I wired my tank room circuits (well, I'm not done it all yet). The breaker to the boxes is 14AWG solid. But from box to box (it first goes to a GFCI in the first box, then it goes on to the downstream plugs using some 14AWG stranded I happened to have. I was done 3 out of the 4 circuits I had planned before the question came to me.

So, I guess what I'm saying is ... I might kind of already used the stranded. Now, going back and putting on blue Sta-Kon's isn't a problem (thanks for that tip BTW), but, the wire itself has "300V" printed on the insulation.

What would be the determination that the wire CAN'T be used at all for the box to box wiring? Is there anything, besides the Sta-Kon, that an inspector might take a look at and say "You can't use that, redo it" ?

I was talking to another electrician friend of mine and he told me code says 12 gauge and that I have to use solid all the way. Is this true? I kind of hope not because I used 15A breakers and 14AWG solid. If I HAVE to go to 12 and 20 it means I have to buy all new wire and all new breakers.

I was pretty sure none of the circuits in my house are 20A breakers, but I'll double check to be sure.

Is my friend correct though about 12 gauge??

Also I was reading on an electrical discussion forum and it came up that each outlet counts as one amp. Is THIS correct too? In that case, how do we run things that are more than one amp?? A single 400W lamp for example would be, what, 3.5 amps or thereabouts? A pump might well be more than 1 amp, no ??

Or is that just a case of averaging and predicting what a total draw on a circuit might be? Ie.,15amps at the breaker with a 80% max load equates to a max of 12 outlets? But each outlet itself may be allowed to use more than 0.8A ???

StirCrazy · #5 10-03-2009, 03:43 PM

personally I would take the stranded out and use solid, less problems. Stranded wire had the capability to be more affected by oxidation than solid, so for long term installs solid is better. Over the years I have replaced tones of stranded wires due to voltage drop from corrosion, I have never replaced a solid wire for any reason other than mechanical damage. and since you are building it in a fish room which is going to be high moisture...

Steve

banditpowdercoat · #6 10-03-2009, 03:47 PM

You will be fine. Nothing in code with Stranded over solid. Stranded acctually has more ampacity, due to the skin effect that electricity follows. Also, theres nothing wrong using larger wire than necessary. ie, 12ga on a 15A circuit. BUT, you can not go the other way. You cant use a 20A breaker on 14ga wire. Also, breakers are only rated for 80% continuous ampacity. Meaning, a 15A breaker can acctually only handle 12A of continuous current before it trips. On a current spike, it will trip at 15A. And yes, each outlet, or light socket counts as 1 amp. You can only wire 12 outlets or lights, or any combination thereof on a 15A circuit. Your correct on the averaging thing. but each plug can handle 15 amps, just not all at the same time

StirCrazy · #7 10-03-2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delphinus

I was talking to another electrician friend of mine and he told me code says 12 Gage and that I have to use solid all the way. Is this true? I kind of hope not because I used 15A breakers and 14AWG solid. If I HAVE to go to 12 and 20 it means I have to buy all new wire and all new breakers.

I was pretty sure none of the circuits in my house are 20A breakers, but I'll double check to be sure.

Is my friend correct though about 12 gauge??

Also I was reading on an electrical discussion forum and it came up that each outlet counts as one amp. Is THIS correct too? In that case, how do we run things that are more than one amp?? A single 400W lamp for example would be, what, 3.5 amps or thereabouts? A pump might well be more than 1 amp, no ??

Or is that just a case of averaging and predicting what a total draw on a circuit might be? Ie.,amps at the breaker with a 80% max load equates to a max of 12 outlets? But each outlet itself may be allowed to use more than 0.8A ???

14 gage solid is for 15amp, 12 is for 20 amp, but this is for solid core. a lot of places make you go to a lower gage when using stranded on longer runs. Outlets don't count as one amp you have to actually look at the purpose. there is actually a max number of outlets you can run on a breaker my book is still packed so I can't tell you exactly what it is though

**** I just did some reading that some juristictions require a min of 12 gage even for 15 amp, and it looks like Cow town might be one of them.. so that is something I would definatly check into***********

if you are doing your fish room figure out what exactly you are putting in for wattage requirements then split them up so each breaker is loaded no more than 1200 watts. what I did was put my two MH on different breakers and had one pump on each breaker, then I had another breaker for other pumps and heaters. each one was GFI protected separately. also remember you may have a problem if you are getting this inspected as outlets and switches have to be a minimum of 4 feet from water(might be off on the distance, but it is something like that) and I have heard one guy say the inspector wanted him to use outdoor fixtures due to the environment it was in. If you are getting it inspected, I would go to the city hall and say you are thinking about building a fish tank utility room and ask if there is anything special you should be aware of in regards to the code, also ask him about the stranded vs solid, cuz he is the one that signs off on it. the problem with not getting it inspected is if you have a fire starting in the fish room you will have no insurance, where if it is inspected even if it was started by the electrical stuff they have to cover you as it was to code.

Steve

StirCrazy · #8 10-03-2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat

And yes, each outlet, or light socket counts as 1 amp. You can only wire 12 outlets or lights, or any combination thereof on a 15A circuit. Your correct on the averaging thing. but each plug can handle 15 amps, just not all at the same time

thats a little misleading, that is asuming normal household lamps. for this case he needs to figure out what he is putting on the circut to size them properly.. would be more akin to running and industreal circut for a work shop that will have a few high amp loads. at anyrate figure out what you need than throw in a couple extra outlets.

banditpowdercoat · #9 10-03-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

thats a little misleading, that is asuming normal household lamps. for this case he needs to figure out what he is putting on the circut to size them properly.. would be more akin to running and industreal circut for a work shop that will have a few high amp loads. at anyrate figure out what you need than throw in a couple extra outlets.

Whenever I wired up a new home installation, you don't know what lamp, or whats going to be used on what plug. The generalization of 12 total items per 15 amp breaker is norm. And, in reality, you usually have far less than that on each circuit anyways. Like even 2 bedrooms on one circuit, 6 plugs and 2 lights?? thats what I was trying to convey. This can also hold true in a fish room. Because what loads you have now, may not be the loads you have in the future. As long as you don't exceed the maximum 12 for 15a breaker, you should be fine with any inspector

Delphinus · #10 10-03-2009, 05:44 PM

Ugh, I was afraid of this. Steve, did you find the info online somewhere about the 12 gage in Calgary? If so can you point me to the URL. I did some google searches at the time I posted this question but didn't find much. I looked up at Chapters for code books but they all look like national things not regional things and .. well they're all in the $120 and up price category to boot.

I might just have to do as you say, pay city hall a visit and go from there.

Sigh ... this will be the 3rd or 4th time I've ripped the electrical boxes out of the framing. The first few times were more just vanity, I didn't like how I did them in the end. Now I finally have a setup I like and it only now occurs to me that what I was doing might be stretching it.

I think not inspecting it is not an option for the tank room. The basement was never developed when I moved in and had no power down there except for the pullstring lights so I had a buddy (who was apprentencing at the time) do two temporary circuits for the tanks. I just took those temporary circuits out, 4.5 years later. I found something really disturbing when I took them out:

.. ok never mind I can't seem to find a #@$#@$#!!! USB cable anywhere in the house. Why can't digital camera's be wireless ?! There's easily 4 or 5 of them but not a one to be found. So I can't take a picture of my GFCI at the moment. Anyhow, one of my GFCI receptacles had melted, the white wire was fused in place and the insulation of the wire itself had charred black. This is was servicing my tank until Wednesday !!! I have no idea how long it had been like that. But, clearly, not good. So I definitely need things to be done right this time and I was thinking that, yeah, just for preventing things like that, I should get the permit and the inspection done.

BTW I hate the way the word "Gauge" is spelled. I totally agree it should be spelled Gage. "Gauge" looks like it should be pronounced "gog".

Man I wish I could just pay someone to take over this tank build. Financially it's just not an option. I guess it's, um, "interesting" to learn all this new stuff and it's a challenge and blah blah blah it will all work out in the end blah blah blah personal growth grumble grumble comfort zone blah blah challenge yackity yack yay.