Hello from Calgary

[jeditait]

Hi I am new to the site and have some questions about starting up a reef tank and have been told this is the best site to get some answers .

I have been in the hobby for a year and a half now and have a 230 gallon freshwater african cichlid tank. I want to get into marine because i want to try something new.

Currently I plan on setting up the tank using a Cascade 1500 canister filter to do chemical and mechanical filtration. I will also add a sump, 30-40 gallons; with live rock, refugium and Seachem Matrix (see question 2 below regarding skimmer).

So to my set of questions:

1. Do you need to use RO water in Calgary or can you use tap water add water conditioner and filter heavy metals out of the water by using seachem carbon and cuprisorb??

2. Do I need a protein skimmer??

3. How much live rock do you need??
I have read a lot and see anywhere from .5 lbs per gallon to 2 lbs per gallon. I understand this probably depends alot on your filter setup and what type of look you are going for, but I would love to hear how others are doing it.

4. Last but not least, where's the best place in Calgary to get Live Rock?
Im not talking cheap live rock, i mean to say where is the most reliable source for healthy live rock that comes at a good price!

Thanks!

[SteveCGY]

1. Rodi water is highly recommended as it will make your life a lot easier battling different things. But no not needed.

2. Protein skimmers in my eye are a must but have seen tanks run without them. So no I wouldn't say a must.

3. Live rock I would say 1lb pet gallon but it's completely up to you and the aqua scape you want to have.

4. Best and cheapest place would be from fellow reefers. If you want dry rock I would recommend Fiji reef rock.

I personally would ditch the canister filter and just use your sump and a skimmer. Canister filters unless cleaned really regularly are just phosphate bombs.


O and welcome.

[Magickiwi]

Canister filters are much maligned but they aren't as bad as people say. A thorough cleaning every couple weeks and they are fine. Sump filtration is definitely the way to go but if that's all you have then don't worry.

1lb per gallon is what I went with, any more and I'd have had a rock tank instead of a fish tank.

[mrhasan]

Welcome to Canreef

1. RO is not a MUST but its HIGHLY recommended. I have had used tap water for about a year. During the summer, tap water "seems" fine (didn't have algae issue) but winter is worse (diatom bloom is a must with tap water). Its always better to used RODI or atleast RO (I use RO and comes out at 4ppm; many will freak out with that number but I am using it with no issue. But ofcourse, 0ppm is ideal but you will need the DI unit for calgary water).

2. For skimmer, there are many different sides. Some don't like skimmer while other do. Among them, there's the overskimming group and the skimming group. There's success among all three groups as well as failure. Skimmers are recommended, especially if you want bigger bioload in the tank since it helps with he nutrient issue. Some argue that skimmer take away good stuffs along with bad stuffs and not worth it while others don't agree to such extend that they would quit skimming. Skimmers are great filters for saltwater. So do I recommend a skimmer? yes. Will I agree that you "absolutely" need one? No. And this is one piece of equipment I wouldn't "cheap" out. You don't need to invest a lot to get a skimmer that works great (bubble magus, reef octopus, vertex, etc. works great) but I wouldn't settle for something from companies that are not specialized in skimmers.

3. Basic rule of thumb is about a pound to two per gallon depending upon what kind of aquascape you want to pull. Some people go for less rock in display and more in sump while others go all in for their display. Personal choice. And the more the porous/matured the rock is, the better it is. I personally use around 50lb in my 70 gallon tank.

4. I personally don't trust any store with LR. They are, most of time, pest harvester and you will end up paying crazy amount (anywhere between $8 to $10/lb). I prefer LR from hobbyists since they can atleast give me some hint what to expect and what not to expect. I highly recommend to buy LR from hobbyist. And if you can't find any, you can always go for dry rocks (the new craze since it doesn't have the water weight and no chance of having any pest) but they always need some work. Both type has their advantages and disadvantages.

Originally Posted by jeditait

Hi I am new to the site and have some questions about starting up a reef tank and have been told this is the best site to get some answers .

I have been in the hobby for a year and a half now and have a 230 gallon freshwater african cichlid tank. I want to get into marine because i want to try something new.

Currently I plan on setting up the tank using a Cascade 1500 canister filter to do chemical and mechanical filtration. I will also add a sump, 30-40 gallons; with live rock, refugium and Seachem Matrix (see question 2 below regarding skimmer).

So to my set of questions:

1. Do you need to use RO water in Calgary or can you use tap water add water conditioner and filter heavy metals out of the water by using seachem carbon and cuprisorb??

2. Do I need a protein skimmer??

3. How much live rock do you need??
I have read a lot and see anywhere from .5 lbs per gallon to 2 lbs per gallon. I understand this probably depends alot on your filter setup and what type of look you are going for, but I would love to hear how others are doing it.

4. Last but not least, where's the best place in Calgary to get Live Rock?
Im not talking cheap live rock, i mean to say where is the most reliable source for healthy live rock that comes at a good price!

Thanks!

[asylumdown]

I'd say the answer to all your questions is 'depends on what you want to keep'

Are you converting your cichlid tank, or starting over new? If you're starting over new, why do you want to use a canister filter? The only reason I'd use a canister filter on a new set-up would be if I already owned it and I was trying to contain costs. Mechanical filtration on a reef set-up is much more efficiently achieved with either a sump with filter socks, or some sort of an overflow that flows over easily removable foam or mesh as you are far more likely to change those out or rinse them every couple of days. However, I would argue mechanical filtration in the sense you're talking about aren't really needed in a reef tank, and there are thousands (millions maybe) of people who run beautiful tanks without it. Reef tanks develop a much more complex food chain compared to freshwater tank, with hundreds to thousands of small commensal animals, both sessile and motile that process left over food/fish poop. Also, canister filters are designed to do one thing, and they do it very efficiently, and that's convert organic solids in to nitrates. It sounds counter-intuitive, but one of the secrets of a well set up reef tank is preventing as much bacterial nitrification as possible, or at least preventing it from happening in places where there's no chance for it to be further anaerobically reduced to nitrogen gas (which is more likely to occur when the nitrate is produced in the top few mm or live-rock as the nitrate vs diffuse in to the rock from the water column)

Also, the rules of pound per gallon of live rock are all over the place because I'd say there really isn't a true 'rule' anymore. The answer for how much you need is as much as necessary to keep ammonia/nitrite levels in your water undetectable for your fish load. I think it's been demonstrated over the last 5 years that the actual amount is a) WAY less than what people used to believe in the 90s and b) variable depending on what else is in the tank and the quality of the rock. Nitrification happens on all substrates, so if you've got sand, it's going to be helping out too.

Minimalist aquascapes have been all the rage the past few years and I've seen some jaw dropping reefs with what can't be any more than .25 pounds of rock per gallon of total system volume. I have yet to see a single thread anywhere of someone saying "my ammonia levels just won't come down" at X amount of rock per gallon, so I'd say you need as much rock as you require to build the aquascape that looks good to you.

anyway I could ramble on and on... but welcome to reefing!

Oh ETA: I would go with mostly dry rock like Fiji rock if I was starting over, but that's just me personally. The kinds of living things that you can't pay for that show up eventually that are good (pods, certain worms, sponges, coralline algae etc.) are next to impossible to keep out even if you wanted to. What you do want to try your best to keep out are some species that are universally regarded as pests and can ruin your enjoyment of the hobby. I'd give 100 bucks to the first person who could find a LFS live rock holding bin that didn't have at least 2 different pest species present.

[jeditait]

Wow, thank you everyone for weighing in with your thoughts and comments. Definitely gives me a bit more to think about prior to starting this new adventure.

I am going to keep my cichlid tank, i love it, the fish and all their great personalities. I am looking to start a new tank using the equipment that I have just sitting around wanting to be used

This includes the canister filter, i originally bought the tank from a lady and she used the tank/canister as a marine tank and said she had no issues with it. I assumed that meant that she had to be on top of the filter to ensure good water quality so going into this I was aware of that and ready to take that on.

I was totally prepared to walk into Big Als or Concept and purchase a bunch of live rock too, so thank you everyone for steering me clear of that idea. Im going to sit down with the wife and get some ideas going around about what we want to do in the tank and then im sure ill be back with a bunch more questions.

Cheers

Tom

[asylumdown]

Containing costs is always a good idea. Reef tanks run the gamut from proverbial bentleys to to pintos in terms of equipment and I've seen incredible displays at every price point, it all comes down to what you are willing to put in in sweat equity and what you're trying to accomplish in the end. Also, trying stuff out, making mistakes, seeing what works and what doesn't is all part of the process and why it's so freaking addicting.

The only words of advice I'd give to myself if I could meet me again when I was just starting out would be:

1. don't buy the cheapest version of everything. It's cheap for a reason. While you may think you're saving yourself $200 by buying the Coralife "overflow special" 220 super skimmer, you are in fact just making the skimmer that you will need to buy to replace it cost a couple hundred more than it needed to if you had just spent the money up front in the first place. You don't need to buy the 'best' of everything (or anything really), but it helps to not buy the 'worst' of things.

2. Future proof as best you can. You say you want a reef and you're buying a new tank to do it. I'm all for recycling equipment like a canister filter, but when you buy your new tank, at least account for the fact that one day you'll almost certainly want a sump at some point. If you buy a tank that has no overflow and you've got no ability to easily add an overflow, you might be kicking yourself in the future wishing you didn't have to have all that 'hang on back' crap messing up your view and potentially leaking/overflowing all over your floor. Even if your first sump is a cheap 15 gallon throw-away tank from big al's with a hack job DIY single baffle sitting under a 100 gallon tank so that you've got room for your canister filter, you'll at least have the plumbing necessary to upgrade to a more complex sump in the future if that's what you decide to do.

3. Try to get an idea of what it is that you want your tank to "be" before you start. Do you want a full blown SPS reef? Do you really love the crazy colours of expensive open brains, acans, and scolies? Do you like the low maintenance, big impact look of huge leathers and soft corals? Take a look at some photos of reef tanks online that make you go "wow" and dissect what specifically is in them that makes your heart go pitter patter. The ocean is a big place, with infinitely more niches and environments than you can replicate in a glass box, so it's very difficult for a tank that tries to be 'everything' to succeed. Different groups of corals have different requirements, and I would set up a softie/LPS dominated reef very differently than a high energy, Acropora dominated surge zone reef in terms of lighting, flow, and stock list, and nutrient & chemistry management system.

4. Pick a tank husbandry philosophy, research the crap out of it, and stick with it. At least for the first 6 months. There's as many ways to keep a tank as there are ways to cook a dinner, but there are biochemical realities you'll have to deal with no matter what, one way or another. You'll need a way to deal with nutrients (primarily nitrate and phosphate) that is appropriate for the system your'e trying to run, you'll need a way to deal with water chemistry, you'll need a way to deal with flow, with lighting, with water changes, with feeding. etc. etc. There's a bunch of 'out of the box' solutions to major issues like nutrients such as zeovit, biopellets, biopellets plus GFO, the berlin method, deep sand beds, liquid carbon dosing, water changes, refugiums, algae scrubbers, etc. and a dizzying number of variations on each of those. None is 'better' than the other, just 'more appropriate' for you, your lifestyle and what you're trying to achieve. What is universal, is the reality that if you don't consider the 'outputs' of the nutrient cycle or take them in to account in some fashion, unwanted and nuisance algae that will make you want to quit will deal with them for you.

and finally 5. Make water changes as easy as humanly possible. Reef tanks require more 'life real estate' than a fresh water tank because no matter what way you cut it, at some point, you'll need to do a water change. While there are people who subscribe to the 'no water change' philosophy, they are in the vast minority, and that philosophy, IMO, shouldn't be entertained by someone just starting out in salt water. Unlike fresh water systems, a salt water water change requires taking your source fresh water and mixing it up to the appropriate salinity. For some people, this means storing both copious amounts of pre-mixed salt water and copious amounts of pre-made RO/DI water, which requires considerable 'out of tank' real estate and infrastructure that you might not consider, while for others, it means simply a 20 gallon Brute garbage can they keep in a closet that gets briefly filled with tap water, mixed with salt, and hand balled in to the tank with buckets, all the day of the water change. I've had a tank where this process took 2 hours and would have destroyed my floors if they hadn't been concrete, and I currently have a tank where this process takes 20 minutes. The logistics of a water change are so fundamental to whether or not you stay in this hobby long term, I probably should have made this point #1. Put as much thought in to them as you put in to in tank flow dynamics.

Anyway that was long enough.

*sigh*. Welcome to the hobby?