Edmonton Freshie walking the plank, Any advice to ease the wallet/headaches :)

Hustler · #1 09-17-2011, 09:48 PM

Hey all,
Im mel from edmonton.
I am a long time freshwater keeper zero hours saltwater newbie

My 300 has a giant sump with room for a skimmer,
I would love to do a reef setup with a community of fish and critters and right now I am trying to price out a rough cost to get going...
from what Ive gathered so far ill need,
-Salt
-Skimmer
-Big mother lights
-Live rock/live sand
-water/light measuring tools
Here is what Im working with right now,
300 gallon 96x24x30 with a 6x18x24 sump and a Giant pump (from pices store rack system) Tons of mag powerheads and fresh water drip automatic system with chlorimine carbon filters run into the tank and drains to the sewer.
Where I am at right now.......
its still up and running fresh, so Ill dump it and scrub everything dismantle the sump and figure out how to rebuild it for salt IE no bio balls or sponge or adding new baffles protiene skimmer, reactor ect ect and go from there as a brand new build.
I will probably do half live rock and half base, do i need to go with live sand?
Can i fill it with filtered tap water and comercial salt mix or do i have to go with an RO unit? would it be safe for the live rock so i can start the bio cycle?
Im in no hurry for fish and corals but I would like to set it up right the first time and have a good base to pick and choose where it will eventually end up

any advice is greatly appreciated..... I hope to get into meetings and whatnot here soon once i know what im doing LOL

Hustler · #2 09-17-2011, 10:14 PM

I have soooo many questions..... everything i read contradicts the last page i was on lol. I would like a few corals but Im not looking for a big garden....Ill use a few fake ones and toss some real ones around them....
-will 300lb of live rock be enough or can i cut some down with live sand?
-Is our water decent enough to use with a carbon filter for water changes and filling?
-Will i need a chiller/UV/CO2?
-are bio balls useless in a sump as apposed to a bunch of live rock?
-

Wayne · #3 09-17-2011, 10:34 PM

Well I can start off with a few questions:

Usually 1lb of live rock per gallon is recommended, so somewhere in the neighborhood 300lbs is going to be needed. For that kind of amount you definatly want to buy that from this board from someone with a big tank thats shutting down. Many people don't recommend bioballs because they need to be rinsed weekly to keep nitrates down. As for sandbed being used to reduce the amount of rock, I would certainly go the rock route. you don't need live sand, with the live rock it will eventually make the sand "live" aswell.

Tap water can certainly be used with a declorinator as I am sure your familiar with and just synthetic salt mix will work just fine for you. For your original cycle I recommend just buying cheaper salt mix, then when you get into corals you can start mixing in better stuff if you so choose.

Chillers are only needed if you have heat problems, generally if you have a/c in your house you should be fine running metal halide. If you don't and your temps rise past 84F for too long you can try fans, if that doesn't work then you might need a chiller. UV sterilizers can be added later, they are good to combat green algea after scrape the glass and will help with water clarity, but most people don't use them.

CO2 is something that I am not as familiar with but lots of people with bigger tanks seem to have them.

Take your time let your system cycle for 4-6 weeks before you add some hardy fish, then wait a few months after that before you start adding corals. You can add some durable softies a few weeks after the fish but nothing delecate for sure. Do lots of research before you buy fish or corals as its the number 1 biggest newb mistake. You need to make sure everything is going to be compatible. I wouldn't personally put fake coral with real coral because it will be obvious which ones are fake when they are next to each other.

If I missed anything I am sure someone will jump on and answer it for you, otherwise feel free to pm me.

Oh and welcome to Canreef!

ponokareefer · #4 09-17-2011, 10:43 PM

-I'd buy dry rock instead of live rock. You can get a couple of pieces of live rock from people who are selling it on canreef to "seed" the dry rock. There are a couple of reasons for this. I wish this is the way I had gone and is definitely the way I would go now for the following reasons:
1. It is way cheaper than buying liverock from a store. 300 pounds is going to cost a lot from a store. If you do find a lot cheap from another reefer, #2 is the reason I would still go with mainly dry rock.
2. You avoid bringing in things you don't want into your system. These things could include: killer crabs, killer mantis shrimp, aiptasia, majano anemones, red bugs, bad algaes. When buying the live rock from fellow reefers, you are going to want smaller pieces that you can fully inspect to ensure they don't have these on them.
Dry rock will make your cycle time longer, but it is definitely worth it.

-Sand is a personal thing. There have been a lot of reefers that go completely without sand and have awesome systems. Sand is needed for some things to live though, so you need to decide what will work best for you. You can just ask for a small cupfull of live sand to "seed" dead sand rather than going with all live.

- You could get away with less than 300 pounds in your main system. Sand will help, but the main issue will be how many fish and creatures you have in there. The more fish and creatures, the more rock you should use.

-I would use RO water for water changes and top ups. You introduce crap into your system otherwise. For the initial startup, I just used tap water and cheap salt though.

-U/V and CO2 are not necessary. A chiller is only necessary if you go with high powered metal halide lights or if your house runs quite hot. I would take a look at the new LED lights out there. They are more money, but you are saving on your electric bill, and the cost of replacing bulbs every year. They will pay for themselves in a few years. Also, LED run the coolest of all bulbs, so a chiller wouldn't be necessary unless your house is hot. I already have a light fixture otherwise I would be buying one of the new fixtures. They each have their own benefits.

-Do not use bioballs in a reef tank. Bioballs turn into a nitrate factory and your system will suffer a lot. You can use live rock in the sump though.

You are going to have a lot of information thrown your way, so I will leave just one more tip for now. Get a lot of flow from powerheads in your system. Koralia's are decent and cheap and create a lot of flow, Tunze's and Vortech's are the best, but you are paying a lot of money.

Myka · #5 09-17-2011, 10:55 PM

I replied in red.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hustler

My 300 has a giant sump with room for a skimmer,
I would love to do a reef setup with a community of fish and critters and right now I am trying to price out a rough cost to get going...

-Salt Instant Ocean is about $45-50 for a 160 gallon pail.
-Skimmer Look for Euro Reef, Vertex, Skimz, SWC, Bubble King (if you have $). You're looking at anywhere from about $500 USED to $2000+ for high end models.
-Big mother lights Halides will light up to 30x30" depending on which reflectors you use. This would light a full blown reef. Approx $1000-2500+. T5 fluorescent would be a good choice for mostly fish and a few corals. A couple of 48" fixtures with 4-6 tubes in each would do just fine. Approx $500-1500+.

-Live rock/live sand No need for live sand. That's a gimmick.
-water/light measuring tools Refractometer $40-60. Hydrometer $10. Hydrometers are good for quick testing, but are notoriously inaccurate so you need a refractometer to calibrate a few times per year.
Here is what Im working with right now,
300 gallon 96x24x30 with a 6x18x24 sump and a Giant pump (from pices store rack system) How big is this pump? How many GPH? Too big and you will get tonnes of microbubbles in your display from the skimmer. Tons of mag powerheads and fresh water drip automatic system with chlorimine carbon filters run into the tank and drains to the sewer. This system will need to be modified. You don't want top up water going straight from the tap. If there is no limit it leaves the door open for really big oopsies. Like if a solenoid fails all of a sudden 150 gallons of freshwater go into the tank without you noticing. Use a reservoir for auto top up so that there is a limiting factor. Use redundancy. Tunze puts out a VERY good auto top off for $200.
Where I am at right now.......
its still up and running fresh, so Ill dump it and scrub everything dismantle the sump and figure out how to rebuild it for salt IE no bio balls or sponge or adding new baffles protiene skimmer could you post a pic of your sump?, reactor ect ect and go from there as a brand new build. A reactor for GFO (granular ferric oxide) is a must have in my opinion. It absorbs phosphate which is the number one algae "fertilizer"...not something you want! A second reactor for carbon is a good idea too, but carbon can just be put in a bag in the sump if needed.
I will probably do half live rock and half base, do i need to go with live sand? Like I said, no live sand. Buy as much live rock as you can afford. Look for "used" stuff for a good deal. Try to get someone experienced to go with you to look so you don't buy rock with a lot of pests (figure out what Aiptasia look like...Google it). Find used rock for $3-4/lb. The more base rock you buy the longer it will take for it to become live rock, and you will fight with nitrate possibly for 18 months before the anaerobic bacteria have colonized enough to denitrate. I despise base rock, and personally refuse to use it.
Can i fill it with filtered tap water and comercial salt mix or do i have to go with an RO unit? would it be safe for the live rock so i can start the bio cycle? I would highly suggest RO water, unless you are just doing fish only. Test your tap water for nitrate and phosphate and see what you get. My tap water has 2 ppm nitrate and 0.5 ppm phosphate which is not good for the reef. If you're just doing simple corals you may be just fine using dechlorinated tap water.
Im in no hurry for fish and corals but I would like to set it up right the first time and have a good base to pick and choose where it will eventually end up

any advice is greatly appreciated..... I hope to get into meetings and whatnot here soon once i know what im doing LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hustler

I have soooo many questions..... everything i read contradicts the last page i was on lol. I would like a few corals but Im not looking for a big garden....Ill use a few fake ones and toss some real ones around them....
-will 300lb of live rock be enough or can i cut some down with live sand? amount of rock is a personal choice. More rock more biological filtration...however, get too much and you'er limiting fish swimming space. Personally, I like about 3/4 lb per gallon to have a decent amount of rock for filtration, but still lots of open swimming space. Live sand does not replace live rock. Don't use very much sand, it just traps detritus. Deep sand beds are old school and are a lot of work to keep properly or they will eventually pollute your tank. I like 0.5-1" of coarse sand. I don't like Oolite/sugar sand...it blows around too easy. Try 2-3 mm.
-Is our water decent enough to use with a carbon filter for water changes and filling? For fish only, probably be just fine. If not, you can always upgrade later.
-Will i need a chiller/UV/CO2? Chiller, no...unless you have poor ventilation, no central AC in house, and use halides. UV isn't needed, but can be useful in tanks with a lot of fish to help control Ich but most people don't buy a UV that is big enough to be functional for anything more than killing water borne algae. If you want to kill Ich in 300 gallons you need about 150 watts of UV plumbed into the return line. That's an expensive unit. Anything smaller won't kill Ich. Anyone who tells you otherwise doesn't have a clue. CO2 is used for a calcium reactor which you won't need unless you really get into corals at which point there are different options for dosing calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium.
-are bio balls useless in a sump as apposed to a bunch of live rock?
- Bioballs can be useful in fish only tanks to allow you to keep many more fish, but will be nitrate factories. If you can figure out a way to export nitrate (like macroalgae culture) then they work well, but for you I would suggest you not try it at this point.

You will also need some test kits. A Seachem Ammonia Alert patch is great for in the sump...replace it yearly, it's only $7. Nitrite is not harmful in saltwater unless well over 100 ppm, so don't worry about, and don't bother with a test kit. Nitrate is important to keep in line. I like the Salifert kit. Alkalinity is another one you should have to help indirectly control pH. You wil probably have to dose an alkalinity "buffer" every once in awhile. Baking soda works just fine, keep it around 7-10 dKH. I like the Elos kit, but API is pretty good too. As long as you have a skimmer, keep your alkalinity good, and use live rock pH won't be an issue so don't bother with a test kit...they are inaccurate anyway. If anything, buy a handheld digital pH meter for $50.

Oh, and don't buy damsels. They are DEVILS. They get big fast, and can run the whole tank (IE kill all the newcomers). They are evil.

PS: This is my 6,000th post. I think it's a good one.

Hustler · #6 09-17-2011, 11:09 PM

Awesome info guys

thanks a bunch
Ive watched every LAreef guy video on youtube twice and still im more confused than ever.
for the lights i was thinking a tube that is fan cooled with 2 or 3 400w metal halides? and a few HO flourecents to balance the spectrum., and with no heaters the tank runs at 76f with the big drive pump im using. I dont know exactly what temp im supposed to be locked in at but I hope that will be fine?
Ive been digging around for live rock from local tanks already but i cant find any branch type pieces so i may have to order them.... ive got 30 inches of height to deal with so bigger chunks will help. Ive shipped plenty of fish from van or ontario but this is all new to me with salt

Myka · #7 09-17-2011, 11:13 PM

There is no need for halides unless you're going with high light corals. T5s will be just fine for fish and some basic corals. In fact there are people using T5s on high light coral tanks. Using halides on your tank will be a huge waste of electricity imo, as well as increased top up, and increased humidity in your house. For saltwater 78 degrees is a good number to aim for.

Aquattro · #8 09-17-2011, 11:24 PM

Personally, 300 pounds of rock is way too much. I use 1/2 pound per gallon, I'm pretty successful with it. Lots of room for fish to swim, lots of space to mount corals, and I have no measurable NO3. I'm also not a fan of dry rock, but it is cheaper, so think about mixing it up. I'm never really sure what pests people are concerned with, I've used 500 pounds of real rock over my time in the hobby and once got a worm I didn't like, I just removed that rock. Any crab that comes with it is still in my tank. The loss of all the good stuff isn't worth worrying about the bad stuff (that you could never ever get).

BlueWorldAquatic · #9 09-17-2011, 11:29 PM

Welcome to CanReef.

All great advise

The most important thing though, "Take it nice and slow", patience is a virtue. Will save you a h*ll of a lot of money too.

I converted my first tank from Fresh to Salt a few years back, and never looked back. I just added salt to my current water and ran it for a month. Didn't take too much scrubbing, as most of the algae died off anyhow.

Drop by anytime to the store, and we'd be happy to answer any questions you may have too.

Ken - BWA

ALang · #10 09-17-2011, 11:45 PM

Welcome to canreef!
Looks like you have tons of great advise to digest already, so no need for me to add any. There are already a couple of "newbies" just starting up, so read their posts as well.

300 gal plus sump, wow, you're off to a great start already. We only wish our tanks were that large. I can just imagine what I can do with 300gal, and HOW MUCH I can personally blow on my credit cards

Good luck.
Lenny.