LED Patents - Action Needed!

[Ron99]

Well I don't know if everybody saw the post at reefbuilders:

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/30/s...-broad-patent/

Basically, a company called Orbitec (which is developing LED based grow lights for space and other applications) managed to get a patent for the use of LED aquarium lights with controllers to vary intensity and timing which means anybody wanting to make a fixture with built in controller has to pay them a licensing fee. While it is the subject of debate, many of us feel this patent should never have been issued for various reasons. And to make matters worse, Orbitec is now filing for a continuation of that patent that will cover any LED lighting for aquariums whether they have a controller or not which I think is really overreaching and should be fought.

So I thought I would start a thread here where we can discuss it and also to urge people to go over to reefbuilders and support them in this fight. Especially if you know of any posts on web boards or publications that discuss LED lighting for reef tanks prior to late 2003. They need to gather as much prior art together to show that the idea was already in the public arena before Orbitec filed for their patent.

[ScubaSteve]

I can see how they were able to get a patent for an LED unit with a controller but they haven't got a hope in hell of being able to patent all LED units for aquariums as, at least to my knowledge, it is prior public knowledge. If they applied for a patent of this back then, this patent would have likely been granted by now.

A few threads that come to mind are:
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/inde...owtopic=200335
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/inde...owtopic=138608

Contact the author of the first thread. He is an LED aquarium lighting guru and could give you a plethora of info.

[StirCrazy]

ok here are some threads for ya to look through

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...uaria.marine.*

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...highlight=LEDs

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...highlight=LEDs

heres a good one to
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...03/feature.htm

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...highlight=LEDs

anyways after these we are getting into 2004

Steve

[Ron99]

Hi Steve,

The patent with a controller is marginal to me as I think it is an obvious extension of what has been done with other types of lighting for a long time is therefore obvious and not patentable. As for the new continuation they have filed, who knows what the patent office will allow if others don't bring stuff to their attention.

I am aware of the stuff on nano-reef and I think Evilc66 over there is involved in this already. I was thinking more from the perspective of anything Canadian that could help them that they aren't already aware of. The US guys probably don't spend much time on Canadian boards The one you linked to from Canreef is probably to late as it would have to be before Orbitec filed their PPA in December of 2003.

[Ron99]

Sorry, meant the last Canreef link you posted. The others might be helpful to them.

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by Ron99

Sorry, meant the last Canreef link you posted. The others might be helpful to them.

ya I thought that was a little late, but threw it in anyways.. if you need the pictures that are missing I could probably find the ones of the lighting over my tank. but it could take a while to find them LOL

Steve

[banditpowdercoat]

Along for the ride

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by StirCrazy

ya I thought that was a little late, but threw it in anyways.. if you need the pictures that are missing I could probably find the ones of the lighting over my tank. but it could take a while to find them LOL

Steve

Thanks, I'll forward the link to reefbuilders and see if they need pics.

Originally Posted by sphelps

I'm a little confused and don't see a problem from my point of view

1) You don't have to worry about any patent infringement if you're just building your own fixture, only if you're manufacturing and selling it. DIY'ers are safe.

2) There are a number of problems with LED systems, they are too expensive, they are more complicated than the average system, and they are yet to be proven as a sustainable and effective alternative to existing products for the average reef keeper. No matter how you look at it LEDs are low power which makes them less practical for this industry. I see great potential in residential lighting if the cost can be reduced but not so much in our hobby, well except for moon lights.

3) LED is just a new idea and popular as a result of marketing more than anything else. In five years something else will be out that's far better, even as we speak there are better things on the horizon.

1. Yes, technically they could sue you but it would not make economic sense to spend tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers to recover a few thousand dollars in damages so in practice no DIYer would have a problem. However, it could endanger companies that sell DIY kits or parts to aquarists such as nanocustoms etc.

2. The only problem with LED systems at the moment is cost. And that is really an up front cost as the long term costs are probably less over 5 to 8 years when you look at lower energy consumption, less heat added to the tank so probably less chance of needing a chiller or other cooling mechanism for your tank and the elimination of bulb costs compared to MH or other systems where you change bulbs every 8 months to a year depending on what you're running. So if you actually do the math the overall costs of an LED system are probably lower, just all up front instead of over time.

3. LEDs are not just marketing but an advanced and energy efficient lighting source that, if done right, can accommodate any lighting needs you have from a cheaper fish only lighting fixture to a high PAR fixture for corals. There has been plenty of experience now with LEDs and lots of testing to show that they can produce as much or more PAR as any HM setup. In fact, some testing shows that the light is more tightly contained if using optics and the fall off of PAR as you go deeper in the tank is more linear with LEDs than with MH. that means that if you compare a MH to an LED setup that have the same PAR at the surface of the tank, you will likely have higher PAR at the bottom with LEDs than with MH. Many examples of great SPS colour and growth are out there too. Just check out some tanks on nano-reef.com or at reefcentral that run LEDs.

Originally Posted by Ron99

Well I don't know if everybody saw the post at reefbuilders:

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/30/s...-broad-patent/

Basically, a company called Orbitec (which is developing LED based grow lights for space and other applications) managed to get a patent for the use of LED aquarium lights with controllers to vary intensity and timing which means anybody wanting to make a fixture with built in controller has to pay them a licensing fee. While it is the subject of debate, many of us feel this patent should never have been issued for various reasons. And to make matters worse, Orbitec is now filing for a continuation of that patent that will cover any LED lighting for aquariums whether they have a controller or not which I think is really overreaching and should be fought.

So I thought I would start a thread here where we can discuss it and also to urge people to go over to reefbuilders and support them in this fight. Especially if you know of any posts on web boards or publications that discuss LED lighting for reef tanks prior to late 2003. They need to gather as much prior art together to show that the idea was already in the public arena before Orbitec filed for their patent.

From what I understand you would have to pay them only if your led design and controler was the same as theirs. That is how patenets work, you can not copy someone elses work, YOu don't even have to have a registered patent. YOu can do it the poor mans way disign and build a prototype and mail it to your self by registered mail your patent is validated by the post mark now you can not open the pakage unless you sue someone and it has to be opened in cort to proov that you disned and it object first then the other guy is lible for damages only if his design is the same sa yours. even if only one resister is different then he would not be lible at least in canada.

Bill

[StirCrazy]

Originally Posted by bvlester

From what I understand you would have to pay them only if your led design and controler was the same as theirs. That is how patenets work, you can not copy someone elses work, YOu don't even have to have a registered patent. YOu can do it the poor mans way disign and build a prototype and mail it to your self by registered mail your patent is validated by the post mark now you can not open the pakage unless you sue someone and it has to be opened in cort to proov that you disned and it object first then the other guy is lible for damages only if his design is the same sa yours. even if only one resister is different then he would not be lible at least in canada.

Bill

not in this case Bill, they did not patent a machien, but rather a novel idea. the idea is running 1 or more leds with a controler and powersupply which can alowing for local or remote operation.

this is the problem as it is a blanket patent. and yes it is valid in canada as all US patents are.

Steve