Ocellaris "allergic" to Hammer?

[AJ_77]

I posted pictures recently of a female Ocellaris clownfish taking a Euphyllia sp. coral as a host. Now the fish is showing small abrasions, dots, a tiny rash and the like on her skin, and what looks like a mild rash around the mouth. (This fish is often taking the polyps in her mouth.) The marks are not widespread, you have to be closeby to notice, and they resemble clearly neither ick nor velvet from what I can tell. These visible symptoms have not worsened over the last 4 days.

Water parameters have been stable, changing ~25% weekly. No new additions. All other inhabitants doing well, growing. The coral involved is less than its fullest when the clownfish gets too cozy.

I removed a smaller male clownfish to another 10g nano-tank 2 days ago, as he has recently been allowed into the coral and was showing signs of stress and/or damage, but less so than the female. He is now looking better - there is not a host option where he is now.

My concern is that the coral isn't a suitable host, and the fish may be reacting to the potent defenses of the coral. In one of Terry Siegel's "Outer Reef Limits" columns he states, "There have been reports of aquarists developing a skin rash after contact with its polyps." While the clownfish is protected from anemones, this is a different animal. Perhaps it is getting a skin rash as well? The fish also swims among the branching skeleton, esp. when the polyps are retracted. This may be producing scratches/abrasions?

Here's a photo of the worst side (not great quality, doesn't really show the mouth irritation or the distinction between white marks):


I have seen and read of many examples of clownfish taking alternate hosts, soft corals mostly. I have not found good information on the problems associated with taking a potent LPS for a host, such as Euphyllia.

Does anyone have any information to share? Much appreciated, thanks in advance.

Alan

[ 28 September 2002, 13:31: Message edited by: AJ_77 ]

[Bob I]

Interestingly my new corals book by Sprung shows a picture of Euphillia ancora acting as substitute host for a Percula clown. However, if this damage is new, it is probably some type of reaction. I would say with tongue firmly in cheek that perhaps you should remove that hammer to my tank, and see if the problem clears up. I can only offer. :D
All kidding aside, I would be more than happy to purchase that Euphillia from you. My new nano is currently empty, so that would be a perfect spot for it.

[ 28 September 2002, 15:13: Message edited by: Bob Ipema ]

[AJ_77]

All kidding aside, I would be more than happy to purchase that Euphillia from you.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">HAHAHA HAAAAAAA!! Oh good one Bob - is there a smiley that is wiping tears from its eyes? We need one like that. Oh, you kill me!

Seriously though (all kidding aside), if there is an ongoing compatibility issue, I will remove the clown before the coral. If need be after another week or so it could conceivably go in the other nano, but better if it went up for sale. More to come...

Alan [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 28 September 2002, 16:13: Message edited by: AJ_77 ]

[Bob I]

Well I did make my offer in all seriousness as I did not know if your loyalties lay with the fish or the coral. You have now told me where they lie. No problem of course. :rolleyes:

[AJ_77]

Thanks Bob, I don't know if it's loyalties so much, but new corals fascinating right now for sure. I am also concerned about bio-loads, water quality, etc. So I have some things to think about regarding this situation.

And CRAP, I think I found an answer to my question, from WetWebMedia and Anthony Calfo:

The unnatural hosting of anemonefish by some (most in fact) scleractinians (stony coral) will lead to the death of the coral in time. It does not happen overnight or even in a few months... but, the repetitive abrasive stimulation of the stonies' polyps will open an infection that can quite possibly take the corals life. Most don't survive clownfish residence more than 18-24 months.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This was in a similar context to my original question. SO, I have a female Ocellaris scheduled for transfer. I hope they will both do alright in the 10g.

Alan

[ 29 September 2002, 17:25: Message edited by: AJ_77 ]

[Delphinus]

Ummm .... I could possibly be incorrect in thinking this, but, a pair of ocellaris might fit in a 10g at least for a little while ... in my 50g, my pair never stray from a very small territory. I could easily fit the area that they stay in, inside a 5g tank.

I'd have to check my Wilkerson book, see what she has to say. Unfortunately I don't have my book with me at the moment ..

Anyways just my $0.02 ....

[Bob I]

I think Tony is right. My clowns don't stray more than an inch or two from the anemone. They would have plenty of room in a 10 gallon tank. Even when my clowns did not have an anemone, they never strayed far from the shell they called home. But those are just my observations. :eek:

[AJ_77]

OK, you are both correct - they could fit - but I have a concern with the bioload on a 10g tank with no skimmer. Will large enough/frequent enough water changes take care of the nutrient export? I guess the advantage is one could do a 50% change with a single bucket. And I do mean to complement the sandbed with more and more LR; there is only ~7 lbs in there now.

Thanks for the input. IS this the Calgary forum? ;)

Alan

[ 28 September 2002, 21:58: Message edited by: AJ_77 ]

[Bob I]

Of course a proper sandbed has a major effect on nutrient export. Its main reason is to convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. I realise it takes time for the sandbed to become fully functional. I don't think the addition of more live rock will help the maturation of the sandbed, but will help in biological filtration. In the meantime you do small water changes. It is my opinion (for what it is worth) that you will be fine. But if you are concerned about the immaturity of the sandbed, you can put the clown in my nano for awhile, as it is mostly empty (just some Xenia in it) :D

[ 29 September 2002, 09:51: Message edited by: Bob Ipema ]

[Delphinus]

I agree with Bob, I think it would be fine. Weekly small water changes would be more than enough.

If you really wanted to get crazy, why not build (or get someone to build for you, I couldn't possibly imagine who would do this, though :D ) a small hang-on-the-back type refugium where you could have a small caulerpa grow out using a tiny PC light.

BUT, that would only be for fun, or if you had a need for an accelerated nutrient export. Two little percs, IMO, aren't really going to stress a system with their bioload, esp. if you have a sand bed.

Just some random ramblings ....