copperband twitching its head

[daniella3d]

My new copperband butterfly is often twitching its head and a bit for the bottom fins as well. I was wondering if I should treat it with hyposalinity? could it be fluke? He's breathing a little fast as well, not sure if it is normal or not. I have it for 3 days now and the fish is eating PE mysis and live white worms.

He's on the skinny side with the top part being pinched, so I am worried that the fish has some parasites. I don,t know what's best, prazipro? hyposalinity? or just wait a little more?

[Delphinus]

You *should* be able to see flukes but then again they are white and opaque and a CBB is white so unless they go onto the eyes it might be very difficult if not impossible to detect them in your situation.

Here's my thinking: if it's flukes, doing nothing is likely not the best course of action. If you have the ability to deliver a prazipro treatment, it might be a good idea. Now that I know more about flukes, I've heard that butterflies and angels seem to almost always come in with flukes.

On the flipside, if the fish does not have flukes, I'm not sure if it hurts the fish to do that Prazipro treatment regardless.

The downside is that it will kill off all manners of flatworms (things will come out of your rock that you had no idea you even had) and it's very hard on your biofilter. I also lost my abalone shortly after a prazi treatment to my whole tank, it's hard to say whether it was coincidence (it was 5 years old, I have no idea what their lifespan is) or whether it was related (all the other snails lived through the treatment, but an abalone is somewhat different than a regular snail, so who knows).

As far as hospital tank vs main tank, tough choice. If the fish has flukes, now they're in the main display and others will be exposed to them. But it's harsh to treat a main tank and accept the consequences and the subsequent tank reset that comes after. A hospital tank is perfect isolation but the stress of capture/moving the fish is usually worse than whatever you're trying to treat and the hospital tank itself will have to cycle and the fish can just die from ammonia poisoning. I never know what the best choice is. But when I had a fish with flukes, it was apparent within days that it was a TERRIBLE infestation and so I made the choice to treat the whole tank and accept the consequences. Other than the abalone, all corals and inverts made it through it and took a few weeks of water changes and carbon to get the tank looking "good" again .. but the important thing is all fish came out of the event healthy, which is amazing if you saw what my lieutenant tang looked like at the peak of the flukes infestation, I thought he was a goner for sure but the prazipro fixed him right up. I'll find the picture and post it later.

FWIW I'm of the opinion that I will treat prazipro any new butterfly or angel that I buy from now on, regardless of symptoms or not. Unless MAYBE they come from a known fluke-free source (ie., another tank that shows no signs).

[Delphinus]

This was taken shortly after I started the treatment (I actually did praziquantal powder not Prazipro, it's stronger, but you have to predissolve the powder in vodka because it's not soluble in water):



Here's a more recent shot now ..


I remember distinctly that he did exhibit some head twitching at the beginning. Soooo ... if I were in your situation I'd be thinking of prazipro too.

Good luck and I hope this info is helpful.

[daniella3d]

Wow that poor tang looks terrible. Glad he made a recovery.

Well, not an easy decision. He's in my frag tank and there are no other fish in there. The tank is established for one year but I also have a quarantine tank that I use when I have to treat my fish so I could use that for the parzi treatment.

I would definitly not treat in the frag tank. He's twitching and dashing sometime so something is not right. He's eating well though, so that's good. He does act as if something is bothering him and hurting. I used to have discus and they are champion of flukes and they act like that when infested with flukes.

When I was using prazipro on my freshwater tank it was not affecting my biofilter at all but I did not have tons of worms dying either. If I do that in the quarantine tank, it might not affect the biofilter if nothing die maybe?

I guess I will put up the quarantine tank and treat with prazipro. I really don't want fluke in my main system wich is disease free and has been since day one. Prazipro is already dissolved so no messing with solvant.

I use pieces of liverock as filtration and that worked very well (no ammonia) last time I used it for my hippo tang hyposalinity treatment.

I was wondering if hyposalinity kill flukes?

Originally Posted by Delphinus

You *should* be able to see flukes but then again they are white and opaque and a CBB is white so unless they go onto the eyes it might be very difficult if not impossible to detect them in your situation.

Here's my thinking: if it's flukes, doing nothing is likely not the best course of action. If you have the ability to deliver a prazipro treatment, it might be a good idea. Now that I know more about flukes, I've heard that butterflies and angels seem to almost always come in with flukes.

On the flipside, if the fish does not have flukes, I'm not sure if it hurts the fish to do that Prazipro treatment regardless.

The downside is that it will kill off all manners of flatworms (things will come out of your rock that you had no idea you even had) and it's very hard on your biofilter. I also lost my abalone shortly after a prazi treatment to my whole tank, it's hard to say whether it was coincidence (it was 5 years old, I have no idea what their lifespan is) or whether it was related (all the other snails lived through the treatment, but an abalone is somewhat different than a regular snail, so who knows).

As far as hospital tank vs main tank, tough choice. If the fish has flukes, now they're in the main display and others will be exposed to them. But it's harsh to treat a main tank and accept the consequences and the subsequent tank reset that comes after. A hospital tank is perfect isolation but the stress of capture/moving the fish is usually worse than whatever you're trying to treat and the hospital tank itself will have to cycle and the fish can just die from ammonia poisoning. I never know what the best choice is. But when I had a fish with flukes, it was apparent within days that it was a TERRIBLE infestation and so I made the choice to treat the whole tank and accept the consequences. Other than the abalone, all corals and inverts made it through it and took a few weeks of water changes and carbon to get the tank looking "good" again .. but the important thing is all fish came out of the event healthy, which is amazing if you saw what my lieutenant tang looked like at the peak of the flukes infestation, I thought he was a goner for sure but the prazipro fixed him right up. I'll find the picture and post it later.

FWIW I'm of the opinion that I will treat prazipro any new butterfly or angel that I buy from now on, regardless of symptoms or not. Unless MAYBE they come from a known fluke-free source (ie., another tank that shows no signs).

[Delphinus]

I don't know if hyposalinity will work or not for flukes. I do know Prazipro will work. And I agree with your assesment that 1) something is wrong, and 2) it's very likely flukes. If it were me I'd do the prazipro. The one time I did prazipro it solved the problem, the one time I tried hyposalinity the fish died. So I know what I would do in your situation but every situation is different so good luck whatever you decide.

[Myka]

Hypo won't kill flukes. Prazi is the best bet. I treat most incoming fish with a week of Prazi. Amazing some of the stuff that falls off them!

[shrimpchips]

Prazi will also hit internal parasites, so it's often advisable to treat with prazi anyways.

What you might want to consider (now and in the future) is that many fish will stop eating for a while after prazi. So you may want to get the new fish eating first, before you treat with prazi if the infestation with flukes isn't too bad. With my incoming fish, I try to get them eating my foods first and then after about a week or so, then I'll give them a prazi treatment.

Also, if you're up for trying it, a freshwater dip of 5 - 10 minutes will kill most external parasites, including flukes. This can be 'gentler' - I did this with a Potter's angelfish instead of an initial prazi treatment since it wasn't eating well yet. Just make sure to match your tank temp and pH and aerate well when doing the dip and keep and eye on the fish during the whole dip, and remove the fish if it's showing signs of a lot of stress.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by shrimpchips

With my incoming fish, I try to get them eating my foods first and then after about a week or so, then I'll give them a prazi treatment.

That's what I do these days too. For the last while I have been letting fish settle into a pseudo-QT (I keep rubble in there, and it stays through medication) for a week or so to reduce stress and get them eating. After that, I will medicate as needed. Only in really dire circumstances will I medicate right away. I used to do prolonged dips on all incoming fish then toss them in the sump for a week before introduction into the main tank, and that was hit or miss. It was also hit or miss just plopping the fish in the sump with no dips...kinda scary too.

[daniella3d]

That's a bit what I am afraid of. I remember that with my discus they would become extremely skittish and stop eating for sometimes 2 to 3 weeks, even when the treatment was over. So with the butterfly wich is already a bit on the skinny side, that is scary.

So I will fatten him up for another week and do the treatment after he's nice and fat. I feed it about 10 times per day and he eats each time so should not take too long.

Tonight he seemed not too bad, breathing slower but he still twitch and dash for no apparent reason as if something is biting him. I looked at him with a magnifying glass but could not see anything.

What about Seachem Paraguard? will that kill flukes? fish seem to tolerate this quite well, at least it worked well for my triggerfish with popeye and it did not stop the fish appetite.

Originally Posted by shrimpchips

What you might want to consider (now and in the future) is that many fish will stop eating for a while after prazi. So you may want to get the new fish eating first, before you treat with prazi if the infestation with flukes isn't too bad. With my incoming fish, I try to get them eating my foods first and then after about a week or so, then I'll give them a prazi treatment.

Also, if you're up for trying it, a freshwater dip of 5 - 10 minutes will kill most external parasites, including flukes. This can be 'gentler' - I did this with a Potter's angelfish instead of an initial prazi treatment since it wasn't eating well yet. Just make sure to match your tank temp and pH and aerate well when doing the dip and keep and eye on the fish during the whole dip, and remove the fish if it's showing signs of a lot of stress.

[Delphinus]

FWIW, praziquantel didn't seem to affect the apetite of any of my fish when I treated my tank. Not that I noticed anyhow.