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Originally Posted by Delphinus
Wow, what a fabulous discussion.
Brad's totally right, the average consumer is probably a total idiotic twat. It's going to be an uphill battle to convince them one-by-one. So if they're incapable of making the right decisions, then let's make them incapable of making the wrong decision.
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*I am not trying to single out your posts Tony, but they hapend to be perfect for what I wanted to state
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This was my point at the beginning but lets drop the name calling part and just try this.. the average consumer is uneducated about the issues going on, now having said this even the majority of educated people will take a helthy wild caught clown over one that was tank raised but costs 15.00 more. Instead of trying to brand everyone who would take the cheeper option as unethacale, and trying to pass laws to make them ethical (starting to sound like a waist of time green peace idea...) (sorry if I ofended anyone who supports grrenpeace buit I have seen that they do more dammage than good and I do not suport them in anyway)
What needs to be done instead is for some major investments to go into captive breading programs.. not just little operations (again it is a nobal effort but a waist of time as you will only be able to suport a small area and your prices will be high) With a large operation, as what the fresh water industry has right now, you can flood the market and efectivaly drop the price of captive raised to close to that of wild caught. think about it.. you are shipping short distances so you can ship larger quantities instead of a reduced # on a 24 hour flight, the fish are more helthy you say so more will survive allowing more to be sold at a profit..
Once again I maintain if some one is serious enuf and starts a large operation there is no reason they can't bring them in at a price that will undercut wild fish and make them more atractive to the consumer.
oh, don't reply with how much it costs so and so to raise this or that.. I am not talking about the hobbiest scale or even a fish store that grows there own.. i am talking about a full scale large operation.. of course smaller operations are going to have higher costs/fish.. just the way it goes..
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Originally Posted by Delphinus
Steve, I know you say you'd just buy the cheaper option, but I look at your setup, and I look at your toys er tools and camera and stuff, and I look at your photographs .... and I know there's no way you're not convinced that superior products are more important than just good deals every time.
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Delphinus, this is true.. I care a lot for my critters, which is the reason I got rid of the hobo tang I had.. he was fine in my tank at the size he was but I know he would soon be to large and there would be a war with my Yellow tang.. but if you look closely at all my equipment and such I have built most of it myself (or with help) for a cost that was way way lower than retail.. if I didn't have the resorses I would probably be running NO lights and a sea clone, but yes I do strive to give my critters the best home I can. now as for the issue at hand.. all my fish I have are wild caught ( I am assuming) they are all hellthy, and I think there happy (well except for the Tang which is still giving me the finger when I get close to the tank :shock: still mad that I tore the tank down I think)
but in all honesty I would buy a "Helthy" wild caught over a tank raised if there was a fair difference in the price.. I am not talking about 1 or 2 bucks but say more than 10.00
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Originally Posted by Delphinus
The problem with captive raised is it requires an investment, and so to make the effort worthwhile, there has to be return on that investment. So, maybe the answer is in part to artificially inflate the price of wild-caught. Obviously that would have to be done at the govenmental level by introducing levies or taxes or duties, because otherwise it's just going into somebody's pocket, and that's no answer either (the idea is to discourage the excessive import of wild-caught).
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Instead of encouraging people to charge more for wild caught what we need to do is show that on a large scale you can raise captive bread fish and show that you can make a profit at the same prices as wild caught. if you encourage higher pricing on wildcaught 99.9% of LFS are still not going to carry tang raised cuz there is more prifit on wild caught now. and fi you encourage higher prices on tank raised you will get places lying about it and charging tank raised prices for wild caught.. after all how is the average person going to tell? if they require a certificat, what you will see id stores mixing wild and tank to raise profit again.. so they might buy 40 tank raised and 100 wild but every time they sell a tank raised they will move a wild over to that tank.. remember 99.9% of LFS are there to make money not to give you the best deal they can.
like Tony said this is a good descussion to bad we (as in ethical reefers) are probably less than 1% of the reefers in the world. Yes I do concider my self ethical even though I chose the cheeper wild caught fish..
JMHO
Steve