Shallow Sandbed or No Sandbed
 

In a few weeks, we will be getting three new tanks to replace current tanks. None of the new tanks will have sumps or refugs, the same as the current tanks are.

A 37g (24" x 18" x 24" h) will replace our 42g hex. A 67g (36" x 18" x 24" h) will replace our 28g. The 67g will be placed where the 28g currently is, and the 37g will be placed where the 28g is. Have cured rock in a lit, heated, aerated rubbermaid tub waiting to be added to the 67g.

A 120g (48" x 24" 24" h) will replace our 72g and will reside where the 72g is.

I have moved tanks before, most of them with DSBs, so I don't see a problem doing all the switching around. Have plenty of tubs, pails, extra heaters and PHs for livestock, rock and sandbeds. Will do the two small tanks at the same time, then do the 120g another day when my back stops hurting :razz:

The problem I'm having is regarding the aragonite sandbeds. Currently, all tanks have 3"+ sandbeds and I'm thinking of going with only 1" sandbeds for all three tanks. The obvious thing to do, imo, is to remove and use the top portions of the current sandbeds in the new tanks. What do I do with the bottom portion of the sandbeds? Anybody want this stuff?

Also, the thought of doing no sandbeds has caught my attention from a thread at RC: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...e&pagenumber=1

Anybody here doing sandless tanks? Anybody doing shallow beds? Would like to hear the pros and cons of your experiences with both. Thanks :smile:

Nothing too constructive to add here... but if you need help moving your tanks, or want to unload your extra sand on someone else, I'll do it :mrgreen:

-Richer

sandbed
 

I have a shallow sandbed approx. 1.5" and it serves my setup just fine, mind you I have 120g with about 170lb fiji, 10g refug, and 30g sump.
I think as long as you have enough rocks to maintain the constant break down of waste you're okay with a shallow bed. However, I wouldn't go without a sandbed. For one, it just doesn't look natural for a reef to have a bare bottom. Secondly, the aragonite sand plays a major role of naturally buffering alk, ph, Ca, etc. to keep things at a desirable balance. Without the sand, you will have more work to maintain this equilibrium.

-Will

In my display tank I have a bare bottom and I like it. Nothing really unnatural about it, live rock and corals all over with coraline all over the glass. Really good for siphoning detritus off the bottom and lots of water flow with no sand blowing issues. I think it works well, just looks different (flame suit on)...looks better.

I do have a deep sand bed in my sump it works real well there and have "yet" to have any sand bed issues.

Dave

I have a shallow sand bed and I like it. My tank is 4yrs (in Sept) no nitrates or amn, my readings are very stable. I like the look opposed to bare bottoms which I find very artificial looking and not very pleasing to the eye.(which IMO is one of the top reasons for a tank) I have zoos etc that sit on the s.b. and I can't even image how terrible they'd look sitting on a b.b.

I do water changes on average every 2weeks, I've missed them for various reasons and only got around to doing once a month (x-max for example) and no problems what so ever.

I've read about bare bottoms and they are supposed to be higher maintenance. You still get the filtration help from a s.s.b.

Richer,

You are welcome to some of the sandbed. May even need some help with moving tanks, etc. We live downtown, visitor parking at rear of building. PM me with your phone number and I'll let you know when it's going to be happening.

Will,

I think some sand makes the tank look nicer too. Had an indoor goldfish pond a few years back in our old house. Started out with substrate, but couldn't clean it well enough during weekly water changes. People on the GF list i was on were all raving about their bare bottom tanks, but I couldn't see myself doing that. Long story short, I ended up with a BB pond with several polished rocks from the craft store. Got to like the look of it eventually and was a snap to clean.

Your statement that the sandbed helps with Ca and buffering is a good one. However, I'm guessing that over time, this diminishes and the aragonite must be replaced.

Dave,

Would love to see some pics of your BB tanks. Because I'll have no sumps/refugs, it would be easy to siphon out detritus during the weekly water change. Given enough time and Ca, coraline will grow all over the bottom.

M. Reefer,

Looks are definitely part of the appeal of a reef tank. Appreciate your comments.


Thanks for the comments so far. Any other comments, pics - YES- PICS, experiences either pro or con?

This isn't my tank... but I thought it looked beautiful and its barebottom.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/totm/

This person used starboard on the bottom of the tank.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=354940

-Richer

What is starboard and why would someone use it?

Starboard is the plastic flooring for boats,its white so its suposed to look more natural.You can pick it up at most marine stores.

Bev, I have reduced the sandbed in my 50 to about two inches, and in my new 33G semicube it is around one inch. I am quite happy with both. BTW I think an Aragonite sandbed will only buffer if the PH drops. Over the years I have not lost any Aragonite. :mrgreen:

What is Starboard - response
 

It is a product used in the marine industry for boats. In laymans terms (what I needed explained to me :biggrin: ) is that it is HDPE (High Density Poly Ethylene) - the stuff cutting boards are made out of. It is food grade and will not leach anything into your tank.

Why is is used? To protect the bottom of your tank from any rocks falling if you decide to go Bare Bottom, and it spreads out the pressure of where the rock is sitting on it instead of on glass.

I am just setting up my new 180 gallon tank 72 X 24 X 24 and I just put 1/2 inch HDPE purchased from a local plastics company here in Regina. I have read and am continuing to read a very informative thread on Reef Central - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=1 It will take you a few days to read the entire thread, but after the first 20 pages, you will either like the idea or not. I did. I'm in the 40's now and plan on finishing it.

The secret to making this system - bare bottom work is to have mega flow to keep the detrius in suspension in the water column so it can be skimmed, and siphoning out of any detrius which may collect when you do water changes.

I like the idea. I'm going to be adding water to my tank on the weekend, I'm cooking up my salt water and my RO/DI unit is working overtime to produce.

So what if I don't like it after a reasonable period - I'll just put an inch of sand or gravel on top of the HDPE and I have the benefit of the added protection. Nothing lost except the $100. for the plastic.

Just my 2 cents, and not engaging in a for or against DSB's vs Bare Bottoms - it's been debated to death, just time to read the material and make a decision :smile:

ps: since originally posting this, I've added water to my tank and the HDPE floated away ;-) I took it out until I'm ready to add my live rock from my 115 gal. I'd forgotten that it would float.

Rick

I'm with Rick.

Thats exactly my plan as well. I am aiming for 45x turnover in my new 315g tank. It's freaking tough to get high turnover rates in big tanks :)

I think the starboard look is pretty cool somehow.

I am with the bare bottom group, except I am against the starboard.. to me it looks damn un-natural and ugly. now an idea might be to take the star board and some how glue a layer of sand and rubble to it, but I like just bare bottom as it will soon be growen over anyways.

Steve

Steve,

Do you have pics of your BB tank(s)?

not yet as mine won't be totaly BB till this fall, I am slowly removing the sand.

there are a lot of nice ones I have seen, and if I recal corectly I think Jamie went BB also so maybe he has some pics that show the bottom.

Steve

Bev, what are you doing with your 42 hex?

Steve,

Dumb question, perhaps, but how do you slowly remove the sand without your rock structure collapsing? Also, any particular reason why are you slowly removing it instead of doing it all at once?

How to remove the sand? I'd say a wet vac maybe - dunno how to keep the rock structure stable tho.

here is a good link for steve: http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=35085

well I have been syphoning some out every time I do a water change. I do have some under my rock and this fall I think I will have to pull the rock to get at it. If you placed your rocks in a solid mannor you won't make them unstable by removing the sanbd around them.

Steve

Well, I DID place them in a solid manner :cool: But I used the sandbed to help prop up the rock :confused: So no siphoning sand out for me, I'm afraid. Am getting new tanks all around, so removing the sandbeds at that time would be my best bet, if I remove all of it, that is.

Still not sure what to do..... There's going to be hundreds of pounds of sandbed to get rid of if I go BB :eek:

I converted my 90 to a starboard bottom last winter. While I liked the initial look of it, it didn't take very long for the coralline to grow and start to cover it up...there are even some zoo's spreading from the rock. I think it looks good now...

coralline
 

How long do you think it actually took the coralline to grow over the bottom? Which look do you prefer?

This sounds really interesting! Steve, if you're ever interested in doing something like this, i'd like to give you a hand so maybe this is something I can consider doing when i'm ready.

wish i read this before i put argonite in my new 180. Had it all settled down and water was clear until i hooked up all my plumbing, now it looks like it will never be clear again. flow isn't even that fast yet.Not sure what to do.

Jaws: It remained fairly white for a couple of months, then the coralline started to grow....a little here and there...but before long (a few more months), most of the starboard is covered. I can't remember when I took out the DSB...about 5 months ago???...I am most intrigued by the way the zoos are dispersing over the bottom...on the rock they are bunched up but they appear to be "looking" for room on the starboard by spreading out a bit.

I liked the look when it was new...it made the tank appear brighter...there was a small amount of brown algae in spots for a couple of weeks...my snails eventually cleaned this up, after which the coralline took over...I am going to try to get some GSP's to grow on it next.

Cheers.

pics
 

Got any before and after or progression pics by any chance?

Unfortunately, I never seem to have time to take pictures on a regular basis, let alone get them from the camera to the computer and onto the internet...

Why Starboard???
 

Just curious why people are using Starboard and not other types of plastics IE: Sintra, ABS, PVC

I called PlasticWorks in Surrey and got quoted the following prices for the following types of plastics:
- white Sintra 4x8 sheet is $92 (didnt get thickness for the price quote but they come in 3mm to 6 mm and up)
- black ABS 1/8" is $55 for 4x8 sheet
- shite Starboard 1/2" is $163 for a half sheet (appro 4x8)
- gray PVC 1/8" is $34 for half sheet
- white Sanalite (similar to Starboard) us $150 for half sheet of 4x5

I'm thinking either the ABS or Sintra would work just as well. ABS is black but will get covered with coralline very quickly - it should provide impact protection at 1/4 inch. The sintra will float but if its weighed down by rocks, shouldn't be a problem - its also good for impact absorbtion since its relatively soft

Looking for thoughts/ideas..........

Re: Why Starboard???
 

I understand why folks would use starboard or similar products in a bare bottom tank, and that is to more evenly distibute the weight of the rock over a larger area. I'm thinking, though, that unless the starboard is siliconed all around the perimeter to the tank walls, detritus will accumulate under the starboard :confused:

Turning it into a terrarium for our hallway.

Re: Why Starboard???
 

Silicone doesn't adhere to the HDPE types of plastic - tried - even after I'd read it wouldn't work :confused:

I put my plastic real close to the sides. I figure even if some stuff gets in there, it's a heck of a lot less than in a gravel or sand bed :biggrin:

If you leave a larger "trough" around the edge, your flow may move any detrius out back into the water column. The key here as I mentioned before is maximum flow, so detrius can't collect, but gets skimmed out.

Rick

The idea behind the staroard is to be able to run more flow - 50x turnover and up is what a lot of people are aiming for. Seems to be very popular technique for the sps obsessed...

With the higher flow rates, people report little to no detritus accumulation.

And according to some people, even if the starboard did allow some detritus to accumulate underneath it, it would be an insignificant amount compared to having a sandbed trapping the detritus.

Just what I've read....

Re: Why Starboard???
 

I'm looking for other ideas as well and had one thought - another piece of glass. If the glass was cut so it sat directly on tank bottom and not on any of the silicone holding the tank together, you'd have absolutely no chance of detritus getting under there. That would mean at least a 1/4" or so of perimeter where detritus might accumulate, but if you set up your rock right, you could easily it siphon out.

Don't know how thick the glass would have to be to distribute the weight of the rock evenly. Any ideas here?

Bev, what's different from using starboard then?

clear acrylic
 

Why not just put a 1/4 inch clear acrylic on the bottom? Its shatter resistant, if a rock lands too hard on it, it will only crack but not shatter through and break the glass. I don't really get this starboard thing nor do I see any benefits of using this expensive material - other plastics can still be used even in a high flow tank.

Pros for 1/4" glass:

- can get it at any glass shop (there's one about 10 blocks from here)
- 47" x 23" costs $64 (approx. size for the bottom of my largest tank)
- will not float and will adhere to the tank's glass bottom very well with few or no trapped bubbles
- coraline algae will readily grow on it

Cons for any glass:

- heavy
- easily broken during installation and afterward

Don't know the pros or cons for acrylic, except acrylic will not be as easily damaged as glass, but will be harder to come by.

Really, I don't know which would be better - the plastic-type materials or glass. What do you think?

I am not getting the glass-on-glass thing... what is the point? I would think the potential for damage (cracking, chipping) outweighs any benefit, and it's lacking aesthetically... at least the starboard is white (to begin with), and supremely durable,

Alan,

Glass is just an idea among many.

Another idea is Plexiglas. Have a small piece and tested it for floating. It sinks easily and will probably adhere well to the bottom glass so there would be no possibility of detritus getting underneath. Plexi can be bought and cut cheaply at Rona.

Don't have a clue where to get starboard around here. Checked the yellow pages under plastics and did not see any mention of it in any of the ads.

Don't know what you mean about glass lacking aesthetically. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

When you call the plastics companies, ask if they carry HDPE (High Density Poly Ethylene) and if they say never heard of it, tell them it's the plastic that cutting boards are made of - so it's food grade.

Rick

GE Polymershapes sells starboard (aka. high density polyethylene) and just about any other plastic board, tube, rods, etc.

http://www.gepolymershapes.com/

16536 117th Avenue

-Richer