What to do? Opinions needed.
 

Ok so I've been having a hellish time with dinoflagellates for about the past month or so and my patience has come to an end with the advent of losing a goodly portion of my sps frags and all 3 cap colonies, over the weekend. I've tried: decreasing the lighting period, actinics only for a few days, turkey basting the crap off the rocks, run carbon, chemipure and filter floss to collect the particulates and water changes after the turkey basting and cleaning the glass on all sides. I've increased the alkalinity to 3.5meq/L, calcium is at 380 (where it has always been, not for lack of trying to get it higher :confused: ). My skimmer is pulling out some of the most disgusting black gunk I have ever seen or smelled for that matter. I have lots of flow in my tank which includes 2 802s and 2 MJ1200s. I also was doing regular water changes before this all started and increased the frequency of them during the first part of the bloom.

All of this seemed to start when I removed a lot of the rock (except for the main 4 on the sandbed) to get the foxface and bicolor blenny out. While I had them out I decided to change my aquascaping and reversed the position of two of the main rocks that sat on the sandbed. I think disturbing the sandbed was the cause of all of this.

So now I am faced with several options:

First of all I could just say to hell with it and sell off everything. I've really been waffling about this lately and I just don't think I could do it but these damned dinos just aren't going away (I'm a fence sitter on this one).

Secondly, I could remove the sandbed. Quite frankly its never been that nice white sandbed that everyone else seems to have. The first 6 months of this year it actually looked the best it ever has and had a ton of life which no doubt has been smothered by the dinos. However I have a wrasse that likes to sleep in the sandbed and I don't want him going all weird on me because he isn't getting a good nights sleep :razz:

Thirdly, I could replace the sandbed. Currently I have about 3-4" of aragonite sand (I suppose its the 1-1.7mm grade kind as listed on the J&L website). I was thinking maybe to replace that with a couple inches of oolitic sand. Or I could rinse the sandbed that I have. The sandbed that I have now has currently been with me for 3 years and has been moved 3 times. I'm sure it could use a good rinse :question:

Anyway, please post your opinions on what you think I should do. Currently I am favoring option number 3. I'd really rather not spend any more money on the tank if its going to continue to be the PITA it has been for the past, well technically I guess about 3 years :wink:, but its that 3 month happy-with-tank window that I'm going for.

Christy :)

I don't know what to suggest. Before the move I was battling dinos for the second time, and getting nowhere with it. Tried the lights-off thing, no difference, all the other remedies you tried, same result.

After the move it just went away. I have no idea what did it. The fact the halides were off for almost a week ... the major disturbance of the rock and sand bed ... who know. It's really quite strange that the tank that was having problems before the move, got cured by the move (despite the sand bed disturbance et. al.), and the tank that was fine before the move, has had livestock losses, and problems still since. :confused: Long way of saying "I have no clue what's going on here."

The only thing that I didn't see in your list of options, that I was about to try, had the problem not gone away on its own, was a UV sterilizer. I still don't know if that would have been a "good" option but I was ready to try anything to get rid of that crap.

Hang in there. I know it's disheartening. At times I was ready to admit defeat and do a tank tear-down ... so I know how frustrating it can be.

Good luck.

Well I would say get rid of the DSB you that it may affect your parameter ,you know what the y say about disturbing sand beds, My next tank will not have a sand bed ,on in the refugium and that is it

good luck on your decision


mike

Dang and I donated my UV sterilizer to someone. Who has it?? :wink:

Thanks for the input Tony. I'm thinking maybe a small disturbance of the sandbed is worse than a large one? Maybe I disturbed some gross stuff that the algae likes? Who knows. My skimmate smells pretty disgusting, almost sulphur-like, it could be that I disturbed a pocket of something anoxic. I'm wondering if I just take the tank apart and then put it back together if maybe that will do the trick?? Who knows, at this point I really need to do something or at this rate I'm going to lose everything but the fish.

Christy :)[/i]

Well, if you decide to tear it down to get the sand out, you may as well upgrade so you can have something to look forward to.... :biggrin: You are not just allowed to ditch this hobby btw. :razz:

Maybe new sand and keeping that rock in the dark for a while will help. Get some new rock for some fresh life. It'll come around.

:frown:

I can if I want to.. you're not the boss of me :razz:

Hehe, you've seen me in the LFS, what are the odds I'm going to quit this hobby anytime soon? :wink:

I don't know about this new rock BS. Quite frankly I did that last time to rid myself of the hair algae. I'm tired of algae beating me into submission. Plus I just can't afford it. Right now I'm leaning towards either getting rid of or replacing the sandbed. Someone on RC figures my sandbed is done and maybe is releasing phosphate back into the water column. I'm not so sure about that one either.

Anyway for now I think I'll just see if anyone has any spare sugar sand out there. Maybe that should be my next option. I wonder what kind of algae I can get to grow on that stuff? :wink:

Christy :)

I admire your good humour in the face of mounting frustration.

:biggrin:

dino's suck.

lotsa work to get rid of them. :(

:drinking: Like hair algae, it can drive one to this. :drinking:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I have to go along with the others on the sandbed. It seems almost impossible to get rid of. In the tanks we corrected in, removing the dsb solved the problem. :eek:


However, I see you have wrasses like I do. My new tank will incorporate some sandbed, albeit shallow in most places. Like some others I have talked with, we figure to replace a portion of it every now & then.

Also a way to control phosphates is important. For me, its my scrubber, but also many are having good success with Phosban or the more expensive one from Germany.

I am afraid I don't know what Dinoflagellates are, but they may be that brown stuff on the sandbed? I get that in any tank that receives sunlight. That stuff disappears in the evening. However, I grew a Fighting Conch from one to three inches in a year on a diet of that stuff.
As to a cure :question: I have a nano that gets lots of sunlight in the morning, and it was thick with that stuff. I simply removed the sandbed, and that made it go away right quick.
I would strongly suggest the removal of the sandbed. You could perhaps leave a pocket in an unlit corner for the wrasse. At worst you could perhaps find someone to take the wrasse off your hands. :eek:

I am all for removing the sand bed, but you would have to find a new home for the wrass if you want him to keep sleeping in sand.

Bob,

What are dinoflagellates?

Dinoflagellates are microscopic, (usually) unicellular, flagellated, often photosynthetic protists, commonly regarded as "algae" (Division Dinoflagellata). They are characterized by a transverse flagellum that encircles the body (often in a groove known as the cingulum) and a longitudinal flagellum oriented perpendicular to the transverse flagellum. This imparts a distinctive spiral to their swimming motion. Both flagella are inserted at the same point in the cell wall, by convention defining the ventral surface. This point is usually slightly depressed, and is termed the sulcus. In heterotrophic dinoflagellates (ones that eat other organisms), this is the point where a conical feeding structure, the peduncle, is projected in order to consume food.

Dinoflagellates possess a unique nuclear structure at some stage of their life cycle - a dinokaryotic nucleus (as opposed to eukaryotic or prokaryotic), in which the chromosomes are perminently condensed. The cell wall of many dinoflagellates is divided into plates of cellulose ("armor") within amphiesmal vesicles, known as a theca. These plates form a distinctive geometry/topology known as tabulation, which is the main means for classification.

Both heterotrophic (eat other organisms) and autotrophic (photosynthetic) dinoflagellates are known. Some are both. They form a significant part of primary planktonic production in both oceans and lakes. Most dinoflagellates go through moderately complex life cycles involving several steps, both sexual and asexual, motile and non-motile. Some species form cysts composed of sporopollenin (an organic polymer), and preserve as fossils. Often the tabulation of the cell wall is somehow expressed in the shape and/or ornamentation of the cyst.


Besides being important primary producers, and therefore an important part of the food chain, dinoflagellates are also known for producing nasty toxins, particularly when they occur in large numbers, called "red tides" because the cells are so abundant they make the water change colour. Besides being bad for a large range of marine life, red tides can also introduce non-fatal or fatal amounts of toxins into animals (particularly shellfish) that may be eaten by humans, who are also affected by the toxins. Many of these toxins are quite potent, and if not fatal, can still cause neurological and all sorts of other nasty effects. Add this to the rather ominous suspicion that red tides may be more common thanks to human inputs of phosphates and warmer global temperatures, and you can probably see why we have a vested interest in finding out more about them - both medical and economic.

Steve

Steve,

What is plagiarism?

Plagiarism is using others' ideas and words without clearly acknowledging the source of that information. :razz:

Steve meant to include that the info came from here...

http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/p...agellates.html

..right, Steve? :biggrin:

if you want to try some Algone in your aquarium I could send you some for free, just pay the courier or mail fee and its yours... it should clear up your problem in about 5 days easily.....
I have come across the exact same problem you describe many times and the algone has always cleaned it up quickly.....
it could save you alot of trouble

It looks to me like the solution has already been stated...it's time to move. :lol: .

Hi Christy sorry to hear that you are having problems, but thats no reason to give up. Listen, it's time to fight back even harder. Base on what you mention, it seems like your 3-4 inch sandbed may be a factor here. I suggest either reducing the sandbed, I don't have deep sandbed in all my systems, take the sand out and bleach them, yes bleach them, don't worry about the bacteria, you got rocks. Switch over to not so fine sand but the carbisea seaflor super reef, if you don't want to spend a nickle at all, keep what you have but reduce it. Dinoflagellate are toxic to most invertes, snails, and fish possibly. If you have a few death lately of snails, you can be sure. But sounds like your system has quite alot of nutrient base on what your skimmer is pulling out. Keep your skimmer clean and functional 120% at all time. Disturbing the dsb probably provoke nasties to the surfaces. I have confident that you will win but don't give up. Plus don't add anymore additives at this time. Regards Ken

We have had great definitions, but what do they look like in a tank :question: How do you know you have them. :question:

um not sure if that was the address.. but if you check it I never claimed it as my own work so not plagiarism at all, but ya to clear it it was a definition I cut and pasted from some site.

Steve

If you have to ask if you have a dino bloom, odds are you don't. :razz: Your tank will look like it's boiling over as everything will be covered in bubbles, and there will be a stringy/snotty like goo covering everything (including fish in some cases!) It is a little like cyano, only, cyano has more tenacity in substance (if that makes any sense). Basically this stuff disintegrates at a touch, but reproduces so amazingly fast you can almost literally see it grow in front of you. You can siphon it out 100%, and it will regrow 100% within hours (or less).

Beyond a visual nuisance, it may be harmful or toxic if ingested (I'm not certain, but I had a lot of snails die off when I had it).

Funny,
My frag tank has Dino's as well as my fuge but the main tank doesn't have any. It's not so funny but it is all at the same time.

Tony has it correct though. I can syphon the crap out of the frag tank and 8 hours later it looks like I did nothing.

:rolleyes: