Quarantine Poll
 

Do you quarantine all new fish? And do you preventatively treat with any meds, hyposalinity, or freshwater dip?

I quarantine everything 3-4 weeks.

the one time I didnt QT I got ich.

so lesson learned is... use the QT

I haven't quarantined anything yet and I have been very lucky and got away with it. In future if i ever get any more fish i will quarantine them. I like the fish i have now too much to risk.

Re: Quarantine Poll
 

For many years, I rarely QTed anything and was pretty freaking lucky. However, since starting up our 72g last July, we've had nothing but trouble with our fish. Am now QTing EVERYTHING for 6 weeks or longer, and treating only when necessary.

My plan for my new tank will be to quarantine everything for one month. I am also considering doing a freshwater dip routinely and also running hyposalinity for part of the quarantine period.

Any advice on this particularly from people who have worked in retail/wholesale fish sales would be appreciated.

I QT for about 1 month,I feel in this time the fish is no longer stressed from being captured and transported who knows how many times before getting to your home.You can keep an eye on it easier in QT than you can when its hidding in your main tank, and catch any health problems and deal with them more effectivly.I dont medicate unless theres a problem,I dont see any reason to add more stress.QT is a good place to fatten up the fish and make sure its strong and healthy before puting it into the main tank where it has to compete for food and territory.Besides cant have an empty tank in the house .

I have to honestly say I never quarantined. Then I bought a Yellow Eyed Tang. It brought a horrible disease to my tank. I am still not sure what it was. However, the result was a dead Royal Grama, and a Bicolor Blenny. My Six Line Wrasse, Mandarin, and Yellow Goby escaped unhurt. I now have a 15 gallon tank all set up, and I will quarantine the next fish I get fo a month at least. :redface:

Bob (and other skimmerless, sumpless people trying to keep larger fish), you have to do something about oxygenation in your tank. A ripple on the surface just won't do it. Sorry, but I know this to be true.

I learned that lesson early on Deb. My tank originally started off with just powerheads and internal fluval rippling the surface. The clowns and mandarin and inverts and corals were all fine. Then I started adding oxygen-demanding fish and had problems. Added a new jawfish; dead next week. Added another; dead next week. Added a flame angel, dead next week. Added a tang; dead next week. Added a replacement tang; dead next week. It was depressing. All those fish were perfectly healthy when I bought them. My water parameters (ammonia, nitrate, etc) were great. Then I added a skimmer and added a tang again; alive next week, alive next month, alive next year. Added a flame angel; alive next week, alive next month, alive next year. No more mysterious deaths.

boB had ich brought into his tank by the tang which is what killed his fish. Don't know about how much water circulation he has in his sumpless, skimmerless tanks, but in mine, I run as many high powered powerheads as my tanks can take without everything blowing to kingdom come. Didn't have to learn it the hard way, either. Just read books on how much flow certain corals needed and went from there.

The fish in question was quite small. It was returned to the LFS after introducing disease into my tank, and because it looked quite out of place in my tank. I most certainly will not continue an oxygenation/skimming discussion, as it is totally out of place in this thread. Nor do I appreciate non ending slurs, digs, and cracks about my methods. Fun is fun, but mean sprited remarks are not. :mad:

Hi. Please, don't take this as an argument. I am just going to talk about my tank and my experience. Most of the fish that died in my tank before I used a skimmer died from ick. That's why I started using chemicals like Kick-Ich, Rally, RXP, garlic, etc. None worked and fish kept getting ick and dying within a month. It wasn't until I added a skimmer that the fish stopped dying though the ick remained. The only thing that changed was the addition of an aerating device (skimmer). I have pictures of fish with ick and it isn't pretty. But with the skimmer, the fish survived and fought it off on its own (not surprising since ick affects the respiratory system I've read). Seth came over last night and mentioned why does my fish have ick spots on them and I told him that I've always had it and can't get rid of it completely. I told him that I've had those fish forever and ick is harmless. Moo even got ick after I introduced her to the tank. Yes, Ick can kill in certain conditions, but fish should be able to fight it off in normal conditions, even impossible-to-keep ones. :smile: So this is my experience with diseases in my tank and it works for me in my tank under Vancouver conditions. :)

As for quarantining, I don't because I only have a small tank and isn't worth it to set a Q tank up and I have no space.

This too is not an argument, but an attempt to clear up what I believe are misconceptions. To begin with running bubbles through water does not add oxygen to the water. Gas exchange only happens at the water surface in a very thin layer where water meets the air. The more you disturb this layer, the more you will add oxygen. In the ocean the waves breaking can cause supersaturation. Something that will not happen in our tanks, but disturbing the surface layer as much as you can will greatly enhance gas exchange. In a skimmer there is very little disturbance of the water to air layer, and it is contained in a small area. Therefore it is my contention that a skimmer cannot function as an aerating device. It is unfortunate that I have seen this argument confirmed, but I can't remember where. However, if someone is able to refute what I believe is a scientific fact, I will happily take it back. :mrgreen:

Bob, I believe O2 goes in by itself quite easily once CO2 is dispelled. The skimmer does an excellent job of agitating the water that flows through it, and I believe this does in fact provide for a higher O2 level than if a skimmer was not used.
Good ciculation in a tank with the sufficient surface agitation could provide the same amount of CO2 off-gassing, but this would require a lot of water movement.
Ultimately there is a maximum and saying that a skimmed tank will always be higher in O2 is certainly not true. A skimmer will not supersaturate O2 in to solution. It does provide an easy way to remove CO2 though.
So, required? No. Helpful in this task? I believe so. Again, so supporting research, but the logic is sound.

I quarantine for 2-3 weeks before I put my fish into our retail tanks for sale. They are tested and tracked everyday. I re-assess treatment daily. Large water changes are a big part of my treatment regime, although costly 20-30% daily water changes have a significant effect on the fishes health. As I also use bacterial disturbing medications it helps to eradicate Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate spikes.
I also use Hyposalinity and various combinations of Copper sulfate, Methylene blue, Malachite green, and Formaldehyde. It depends on what I'm dealing with. I also use freshwater dips, and medicated dips as well. I'll admit I occasionally see diseases that are unresponsive to my efforts.

Seeing various diseases that can come from wild caught fish. I think it is very risky and surprising that more people don't quarantine.
It seems that sometimes stress induced disease outbreaks take 3-5 days to appear. In most stores the fish is sold and in your tank by then, not to mention with the additional stress of recapture and acclimatizing to your aquarium.

I will also say that many disease outbreaks are certainly hobbyist induced by poor handling, poor acclimatization, bad water quality, and non compatible tankmates.
I can't count the amount of times I've had a fish in quarantine for 2 weeks, then in our retail systems for weeks to even months and a customer takes it home and it dies within a few weeks(sometimes days). I can confidently say that the hobbyist is responsible for the unfortunate demise of the fish. When I ask them about their tank their answer is almost always that everything is "fine". I wish I could say it but my response in my head is usually "well obviously not". Now sometimes we are able to source the problem with water tests and discussing their tank and husbandry techniques.

Nobody is perfect and sometimes fish go into shock, or have weak immune systems, but I think this would only account for a very small percentage. The fish had to be pretty tough to get to the retailers tanks in the first place.

I guess my point is that I think a 10 or 20 gallon quarantine aquarium should be in every serious aquarists fish room. Sure most times you can get away without it, but when you finally get hit with disease, you would gladly turn back time if you could. People say but I can't afford not to. My response is look at the price of medication and lost fish. Plus as Quagmire stated a quarantine tank gives your new fish a chance to settle and fatten up before having to compete with more established tank mates.

I also notice people don't tend to make a big deal of their aquarium failures. They talk about all the fish they have kept and omit from memory the ones that didn't make it. Or they say "But he had (insert excuse)".

My point is that I think everyone should quarantine regardless if the store they buy from does or not. At very least a fresh water dip or medicated dip prior to addition to the main aquarium.

Here's a question. I agree when a healthy fish has been in a store for many weeks and months and then dies within a few days in the customer's tank that there's a possibility that its the conditions of the customer's tank that is questionable. But in that case, I don't think a quarantine tank would have helped. Is it for sure that a bare Q Tank is less stressful to the new fish than an established reef?

I agree with you Brad. You would need a lot of surface agitation like running a powerhead with a venturi device. Unfortunately, to get that agitation would mean a lot of salt all around my tank. The skimmer does that for me without the salt spray. If I turn off my skimmer now and just leave the powerheads on (with lots of surface ripples), I can almost guarantee the death of some of my fish (not all) within a month. Should I try it as an experiment and see if I can reproduce the same result as I did last time?

SAMW
Well I do think the reef in some ways would be less stressful and certainly more natural, but at what cost to it's currently healthy inhabitants?

Dead, live rock or even PVC pipes can provide a habitat for fish during quarantine. As well as a dimly lit tank to calm them as they get used to captivity.

This environment (bare tank) couldn't be too bad otherwise clownfish would not feel comfortable enough to spawn in bare tanks with a plant pot. I think water quality is the most important factor over aesthetic surroundings.

Many fish are shy feeders at first and would fail to compete in a tank full of existing fish.
I don't understand why you feel it wouldn't help? Hopefully the conditions in a quarantine tank are smaller and maybe a little more easily adjusted.
I often see tanks were existing fish have adjusted over time to poor conditions, and newly added fish are shocked.
The main reason is medication and water changes are more practical in a small aquarium. Also Medications that are not reef safe can be used, medications and medicated food can more accurately be administered, There is no stressful aggression or territorial behaviour to further stress the fish.

James, I agree Q tanks can be helpful. I was just replying to your point about a heathy fish from a store dying at the customer's tank. If the customer isn't keeping the right conditions for his reef in the first place, then putting the healthy fish in a Q-Tank isn't going to help either since after it goes out of the Q-Tank and into his reef, it'll die anyways. I'm just questioning how putting a healthy fish in a Q-Tank will help in this particular case since you used this as one of the reasons for a Q-Tank. I don't disagree with your other points.

Let me put it another way. If the customer's main tank is the real problem, then putting the fish from your store into his reef isn't much different than putting the fish from the Q Tank into his reef. The extra step of acclimating it to another system first isn't going to save that fish.

Bob you just contradicted your self. around every bubble is a water surface where gas exchange can take place. the reason a skimmer works very good in adding O2 to the water is 2 fold, 1 it creates a large disturbance which aids in driving off C02 and 2, it creats a extreamly large surface area (all the surfaces around the bubbles) to adsorbe the O2.

now if you want to compare the efficiencey of large bubbles to small bubbles the smaller ones win hands down thats why the old bubbling treasure chests we used to keep in our tanks were pour at adding O2 to the water.. they only did 1 large bubble every few seconds.

Steve

Thanks for the clarification Sam,
I agree if the main tank is the problem a q-tank wouldn't do much. I guess I think no system is perfect, so even after I quarantine the fish there is no harm in the hobbyist doing it again.

[quote="StirCrazy"]I could prove that is wrong, it has something to do with surface tension, and if indeed there was gas exchange the tiny bubbles in a skimmer would never reach the surface because they would be absorbed. Unfortunately I can't remember where I read that, and I don't like unsupported statements, which is something you don't appear to have a problem with. I am also somewhat tired of it. you seem to feel that I make this stuff up. You will happily argue black is white, and vice versa. I just can't handle these constant arguments. :rolleyes:

for oxegenating water there are 2 main methods, aspirating, and agitating....

Agitators use a small motor to spin a paddle which is in the water. The paddle splashes the water, which adds oxygen and removes carbon dioxide.

(skimmers)Aspirators also use a small motor, which spins a small venturi device. Air is pulled down through the shaft and exits the venturi underwater, causing a draft of bubbles.

Agitators are the best choice for heavy stocking loads because they transfer "more" oxygen than aspirators.

Aspirators are a good choice for smaller stocking densities, and they are much quieter than agitators. And less messy...

this is fact, Bob is corect, but skimmers do the job for us with our low stocking densities....

Oxygen exchange at the water surface is "best", and oxygen exchange underwater is "good"

this is why in aquaculture the utilize foam heads(mazei)(beckett) at the surface and not underwater

I'm not suggesting that bubbles underwater increases O2. Its when the bubbles burst at the surface of the water that oxygenates the water coming out of the skimmer. I think I'll look for a dissolved oxygen meter on Ebay and do some experiments and see what kind of results I get without sacrificing the lives of my fish. :)

actualy it is because they will not work underwater and by having it above the water you get the O2 from the bubbles and you ALSO get the O2 from the resulting splashing.

Bob, I am not saying the skimmer is a perfect airerator as then like your example "the tiny bubbles in a skimmer would never reach the surface because they would be absorbed." kinda think of the skimmer of using a buldozer to dig a hole for a tulip bulb. hit it with brute excess and get a little. infact when it comes to skimmers becketts are very inefficient compared to counter current skimmers but if you are only 30% efficient but process 1000% more water in the same time period, you get a better result.

for what its worth I only use the trickel of water from my aquaclear to add O2 to my fresh water tanks and there is very little surface movement.

Steve

this is why in aquaculture they utilize foam heads(mazei)(beckett) at the surface and not "venturi"underwater


I missed that special word....lol
I do understand that a beckett or mazzie wont work underwater....

I am pretty well surprised that most people here, including people known to have excellent tanks, don't quarantine. Seems like the cost of one or two dead fish would pay for a q-tank setup.

trilinearmipmap - thats how I feel too.

Are you assuming that all the people who don't quarantine have dead fish as a result? That would be an incorrect assumption.

Many of my fish are five years here. However, I certainly think if QT works for you, you should do it. :biggrin:

No Emily...

what I am thinking is that I have several hundred $ worth of fish in my tank. My next fish will probably cost me more then $20.

If I were to skip QT on that $20 fish and he happened to introduce ich or something nastier to my tank and I lost all my fishes... I would kick myself really hard several times over for not spending $75 on a QT tank and actually using it.

some of us are more worried about corals and don't spend money on expensive and or don't buy fish very often at all.

now if you asked if I dip my corals the anyswer would be yes but fish... I don't buy them very often so havign a "q" tank would be a waist of space in my sitiuation as to me fish are a background for the coral.

Steve

Got my meter!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

:smile:

I'll rent it out to anyone who wants, after I'm done with it. :smile:

Wow, $149 US? Dayum!

OK, I'll bite, lemme rent it!

Awesome price isn't it? Regular $600US.

Regular $600?! WTH.

That thing better turn skimmate to gold :)

heh

Is that meter the same as a ORB meter?

Monza, no, its not the same as an ORP meter

I learned my lesson, big time. I added an Orange shoulder tang (epulete) to my 90 and with in two days it was dead, the day or two after I started loosing fish. I'm assuming it was Amyloodinium (sp).
Keeping a new fish seperate from the established tank can serve a couple of purposes, first off, you can observe the fish in isolation, if something appears to be off you can treat it with out having to rip apart all your rock etc. If after a couple of weeks your fish seems fine, then you can take the plunge and add it to your tank, OR you can play it really safe and give that fish a couple more wweks on it's own. During the time in isolation the fish won't have to compete for food with other fish, chances are it will be fattened up and in top notch shape when it gets put into the main tank. At that point the fish will have enough energy etc to deal with being the new kid on the block.
I'm surprised by how many people don't use an isolation tank as well but I do understand some people don't have the room, and despite the potential benefits it is a pain to have a QT tank set up etc. Who ever said the price of a couple fish would pay for that QT tank was right on the money. I'm of the mind set that if you don't QT and you haven't lost a bunch of fish to disease that was brought in by a new fish, you're lucky. I hope your luck doesn't run out.

Doug

Steve, what do you use to dip your corals? I've not ever dipped them but been curious.

Doug

I QT for 4 weeks with no meds, FW dip before and after QT.