Need some help with browning out sps
 

Hey guys,

I was wondering if I could get some guidance on 2 pieces of sps that I have in my 20 gallon. I have another piece in there that is nice and green and has awesome polyp extension, however the other two not so much. When I bought them from the store they were nice and blue and pink in color, however in my tank they have browned out. I have had them for about 4 months and there is a bunch of growth on them and the polyps were looking good.

I have had them under radions since the beginning of August at 38% and figured that the extra light could help them out. So I upped the lighting to 45%. After doing that, the polyps would not come out on one of them, and the polyps were just visible on the other. I left them like this for about a week with no improvement in color or polyp extension. So I put the lights back to 38% and right away the polyps came out again.

I have another thread on here asking about dosing so I'm wondering if that is my issue but here are my params as of tonight.
pH 8.0
alk 6.8 - 7 dKH
Ca 400
Mg 1280
PO4 slight coloration in my test. (red sea test kit)
0 Nitrates

Would my params be causing any issues with the browning coloration in the tank?

I do run an HOB skimmer, an AC70 modded with a fuge with chaeto running lights 24hrs live rock and chemi pure elite. I have sufficient flow in the tank and the flow on the sps corals is strong (not too strong) and turbulent.

I do have some bubble algae in the tank and scrape the glass every 2-3 days of algae.

Do you think that it's the PO4 in the tank that is causing the brownish color? If so, what could I run to help drop this issue?

Any suggestions would be great. Thanks.

Tagging along., similar troubles here, tried turning up the lights as well as changing the flow.. params are good on my end. I'll be interested to see what you find out.

I'm sure someone with lots more knowledge than me will chime in ...

I wouldn't blame your PO4 at this point
And the only time I've read about SPS problems with phosphates is when they are stripped from the system rapidly

Without knowing what lighting/params etc the LFS had them under/in it's hard to say

I'd say your readings are 'balanced' - you may see some improvement if they were all a touch higher, but don't mess with them yet
Either get your dosing where you want it now, or focus on the lights, but I'd suggest you don't try to do both at the same time

I think you are on the right track concerning the lighting and you should work on getting your params up 'just a bit' and leave the lights down @ 38% until you have the dosing under control
Then, after a couple weeks of watching what is going on, you could consider turning the lights up some more and watch closely what happens

I currently am not dosing, but am looking into it to bring some of those params up a tad.
Is anybody else running radions with some sps? If so, what do you have your program set up like? Just looking into what possible changes I can make to my programming if I get to that step.

OK, so I'd still say it's more your lights than your params

Keep the lights lower until the corals come back, then bump them every couple weeks, and watch for a week or 2 each time
Then bump some more and so on

But, I did say I hope someone else with more experience replies as browned corals can mean more than one thing

what kelvin spec are you using on lights.
I run at 18000k with my radion at 30% about 10'' above water.

I had adjusted the color all the way through my schedule. I will have to look at my program and see what closest it looks like.

Chemistry looks fine, but I doubt the NO3 is 0. Really tough to get no nitrate at all. I'd double check that on a different kit. Browned out is too much zooxanthellae in the coral tissue. Which means probably nutrients, coupled with maybe higher temp.
What is the temp?

I'm running my temp ~80o.

I agree with the nitrates. I'm using an API test kit for nitrate. However, i have been using Red Sea for Ca, PO4, Mg, and alk.
I can definitely turn down the temp a bit as my heater does turn on momentarily.

Do you guys think I should be feeding anything extra for the sps? All I feed right now is mysis, sparinly mind you, and I spot feed my LPS once a week with mysis.

I've never fed my SPS, feeding the fish is enough. Drop the temp slightly, good size water change, keep any filter media really clean or remove it. How much rock have you got in the tank? Maybe post a FTS if you've got one.
Also, how long is the light on?

Good points Brad

Care to explain how this happens ?

I understand corals can excrete their zoox when under stress, but how do they end up with too much ?

Essentially too much food. Either in the form of nutrients or too much light, or more likely a combo of both. That, coupled with temp can cause a "bloom" of zoox to grow. Kinda like any other algae in a tank, just inside the coral tissue.

Nutrients are made available through too much feeding, lack of dilution, excessive spots for binding it (detritus within the rock, deep stagnating sand, etc). Nutrients then are hard to measure as they're aren't freely available in the water column, but leach from the various sources to feed the zoox. Too long of a light cycle and higher temps can then amplify their uptake and growth.
I've always found that the best way to tell you have too much zoox is the amount of fluorescing the corals give off under actinics. You'll notice a lot of glowing green from the browner corals, which is something that typically a fully blue piece of SPS won't give off. In my tank for example, the only corals that "glow" under the actinics are the ones that are naturally green. Not an absolute rule, but a pattern I've observed over the years.
To keep the colors I have now, I've minimized the rock in the tank to promote detritus removal, I keep a very shallow sand bed, temps below 80 (but above 76 to promote growth), large and frequent water changes and a nutrient export system (zeovit). I also keep my lights on full for no more than 7 hours.
Unfortunately there isn't usually a single thing that you can change, but more of a synergistic combo of all these things to bring out the colors.

Hey guys,
I'll get some shots of the tank tonight. As for the lighting, they turn on and begin to ramp up at 10:30am. They are brightest at 5:00 then ramp down and are lights out at 11:00pm. I'll get the exact run points when I get home from work.

As for the live rock, I've got 20lbs in there with ~2lbs of sand.

What kind of HOB skimmer is it?... There is really one that is worth spending money on IMHO.....my guess would be nutrients

It's an eshoppes skimmer rated for a 75 gal tank. I'd have to get the model number when I get home. Makes some awesome skimmate though.

Mmmmmm... doesn't strike me as nutrients. I know it was asked before and I might have missed the answer but how long are the lights on?

Brown doesn't just mean nutrients (My nitrates are at 10 ppm and I've got great colour). It can also mean stress (think of having extra zooxanthellae as stocking up on fat for a disaster). This could mean:

-Not enough light
-Not enough flow
-High temperatures or temperature fluctuation
-parameter fluctuations (in particular salinity and KH)
- Or they're simply just not in the right spot.

Have you tried moving them to a different location?

Thanks for the great info Brad
With that and what Steve added, I hope I don't ever have to figure this kind of issue out

Good luck 04V10 :smile:

Came across an interesting thread of experienced and successful SPS keepers. Have a read, but come back here, k? :)

http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/gene...lyp-stony.html

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I am going to try a bunch of things, slowly of course..lol. First I am going to try and move the lighting up every other week and increase it to see if I see any positives. Second, I'm going to try and use some phosphate remover, as I do have a bit of bubble algae like I said, so we will see if it is that. However, first before the phosphate remover, I am going to start to suppliment a bit and bring up some of my params. AFter this I will try moving it. I started it being on the sand and then moving it to where it was after acclimation, so no I haven't moved it at all. However, the flow, like I said is nice and turbulent where it is, and my one other SPS, which is basically 1" beside it is flourishing with color and polyp extension. Ooh, and first of all, I'm going to decrease the temp a bit and run it at 78o, instead of 80.

I'll keep you guys posted as to my results in the next while, however it might take some time. Thanks a bunch for all the suggestions and advice.

Good luck. I'd try all the other stuff before moving it, I've never been a fan of moving pieces once they're in the tank.

Other question is: what frags are they? I have a couple frags that HAVE TO be at the top being blasted with light otherwise they go brown. Something to consider.

Good point!

is it just a ac110 for your only flow, no powerheads??

i think your problem is not enough flow , which is not pushing enough into your filtration.

a hob skimmer only pulls out what it can suck around it , powerheads help keep stuff suspended so the skimmer pulls it out.


i wouldnt rely on just my skimmer output and ac for flow.

Hey guys,

It's not the only flow that I have in the tank. Maybe I should have added all of the equipment in my first post. I also have a koralia 240, and a hydor 180 kickin flow around.

Hate to say it but even the most experienced reefers would be presented with problems while trying to keep SPS coral in a 20g sumpless. Its simply not enough volume to ensure a constant environment for such an intolerant class of animals.

I doubt it. I don't have much flow in my tank. I have 5ppm of nitrates and quite a bit of phosphates, yet my SPS have great colors and they grow fast, under 250 watt Pheonix MH.

Some of them grow a lot and there is so little flow that you bearely see the polyps moving.

Polyps are out so much that I cannot see the skeleton of the coral (milleporas).

I would think it's the light here that is the problem. Probably the coral need acclimatation to the new light. When I moved a few frags of SPS to my 20 gallons tank with T5HO they became brown and are still brown to this day, but in that aquarium I have nearly 0 nitrates and phosphates and a lot of flow, plus a Deltec 300 skimmer. It's wierd sometime how they react. Maybe once a SPS get used to a type of light it will take a long time to adjust to another light? dunno. I wanted T5HO so that I could have low nutrient system with pastel color corals. I never hapened.

[quote=daniella3d;750737]I doubt it. I don't have much flow in my tank. I have 5ppm of nitrates and quite a bit of phosphates, yet my SPS have great colors and they grow fast, under 250 watt Pheonix MH.

Some of them grow a lot and there is so little flow that you bearely see the polyps moving.

Polyps are out so much that I cannot see the skeleton of the coral (milleporas).

quote]

ok .....fine ill play.... so your using just a ac110 for flow in your tank and a hob skimmer? cause if not then your comparrison is void to what i was talking about.



and let me see if i got this right but this is what your saying is perfect sps conditions??

"I don't have much flow in my tank. I have 5ppm of nitrates and quite a bit of phosphates, yet my SPS have great colors and they grow fast, under 250 watt Pheonix MH"


5ppm nitrates, quite a bit of phos and bright light....ill have to make a note of that i guess ive been going about it the wrong way all these years...thanks for the awesome tip maybe now my sps will grow to be oh so colorfull and wondeful too:P

not sure if you read the thread , i was going off the origional post where it doesnt say he is using powerheads....and YES you do need good flow if you want good growth and color, not critical to keep it alive in which there is a big difference.

Flow, to me, isn't that important for color. Or growth for that matter, if you're not concerned with thick natural growth. SPS in alow flow will grow very skinny and spindly, but will grow.
Lighting is important, not too much, not too little. Some nutrient is fine, many SPS tanks have some nitrate and measurable phosphate. As Levi said, stability is important, and tougher in a small tank. Not impossible, but not ideally managed by someone with less experience growing SPS. I've seen nice nanos with colorful acros, but I imagine it's much tougher.
Really, there's lots of ways to be successful and lots of ways to not be. The trick it to find that sweet spot for your setup and habits. All the info, together or in part will give someone a place to begin figuring it all out.
Daniella has shown pics of her corals and they;re impressive. I would be less quick to dismiss her advice.

+1 on lighting and stabilityg. When one of my radions died me the sps and zoas under the dea radion started to lose its colours. I had recently increased the flow in the tank and find that all the corals are liking it more.

Perfect SPS conditions? there seem to be a range of "perfect" SPS conditions since mine are growing like weeds in these conditions.

I have 2 koralia in my 75 gallons, that's it. No sump so no return pump and flow from that. So some part of my tank only receive very little flow and some SPS there are not even waving their polyps so that's really not much flow. I keep thinking they will die, but they don't.

If your SPS have poor colors, then not sure what is your problem. I am sure you will figure it out :)

Again, I don't have much flow and I have great colors and growth. They don't juste stay alive, they thrive.

So what makes the colors then? I would say light and stability is more important than flow. The difference I can see is that my corals are darker in color than those kept in ULN, but they are colorfull still.

Also the colors improved a lot when I started to use Zeovit Coral amino and coral vite, that was 2 years ago.

I did not know that the OP had no powerhead and no flow. That must be a problem to even keep corals alive, never mind the colors.





[quote=reefwars;750763]

The op who is me has lots of flow. I posted this in another post. 1 240 koralia, 1 180 hydor, and the a.c. 70. Don't mean to call you out on this, but it was posted. Lol n:drinking:

[quote=daniella3d;750958]Perfect SPS conditions? there seem to be a range of "perfect" SPS conditions since mine are growing like weeds in these conditions.

I have 2 koralia in my 75 gallons, that's it. No sump so no return pump and flow from that. So some part of my tank only receive very little flow and some SPS there are not even waving their polyps so that's really not much flow. I keep thinking they will die, but they don't.

If your SPS have poor colors, then not sure what is your problem. I am sure you will figure it out :)

Again, I don't have much flow and I have great colors and growth. They don't juste stay alive, they thrive.

So what makes the colors then? I would say light and stability is more important than flow. The difference I can see is that my corals are darker in color than those kept in ULN, but they are colorfull still.

Also the colors improved a lot when I started to use Zeovit Coral amino and coral vite, that was 2 years ago.

I did not know that the OP had no powerhead and no flow. That must be a problem to even keep corals alive, never mind the colors.

I'm going to guess you're problem is pretty heavily skewed towards the lighting. I don't think you're giving them enough. In my experience, corals brown out and lose colour when they don't get enough light (just turn a coral that's been in your tank for a while upside down and look at the normally shaded tissues under your tank lights!), but they will still extend their polyps. When they get too much light they will bleach out. I know it's only a 20 gallon, but 38% is really low for a radion over SPS if it's mounted the standard 8 inches above the water surface.

I know you dropped the lighting intensity because you saw the polyps react to the increase in light. Polyps are the most sensitive part of the coral, so when you increase lighting intensity it's going to take them a while to adapt and start coming back out again (maybe days to weeks). So long as the coral isn't bleaching or being damaged in any way that's fine. It may also be true that the intensity of the light that is required to get them to colour up properly may be high enough that they never really extend their polyps that much during the day. There are dozens of corals that only really send their polyps out for the 'full show' at night, so if I were you, I wouldn't worry about the moment to moment reaction of the polyps, but instead slowly increase the light by about 5% a week (or every 10 days even), so long as the corals show no sign of bleaching.

FWIW, I have 8 radions over SPS running at a peak intensity of 78% at 12K (all channels at 100%) for 6 hours every day. All of my corals go through a serious adjustment once they go in to my tank, but they all adjust. If I was being fair, I'd say the "full" adjustment for a piece of SPS under my radions is about 2 months, and in that time they usually change colour significantly from when I bought them - thankfully usually for the better. They also usually go through a week or more where they barely show their polyps at all, but they all get over it.

Asylumdown,

Thanks for the informative post! I have my radion around 13" above the water, plus i have a glass cover on it that I'm tempted to run without. I just had it there to reduce water loss. I'm going to lower my light at the end of this week as i increased the strength 8% on Saturday. I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks a million again guys.

Well here's an update of my current issue. I have raised my lights in output to 48% at their maximum during the day. I have also lowered them to 8" above the water as to where they were supposed to be hanging. Mine were quite high before.

Things were looking pretty good and I have to say my LPS are freakin huge now...lol. I think everybody is liking it. I did see some more polyp extension off of the sps that I was concerned about. However not too much increase in colour, although I know it will take a bit of time with that. Though one is really looking nice and pink like it did in the store and is losing it's brown colour.

Second to that. I did a test on how much elements were being used in the tank, as well, I thought I would increase the elements back to where they were when I started the tank with my Red Sea Coral Pro Salt. So far I have upped the Ca to 445ppm, the Mg is at 1340ppm, and the dKh is up to 8.4.

On that note, as soon as I hit the 8 mark with my dKh the colours all of a sudden popped on the sps that I have been concerned with. I am going to be bringing the dKh up to 11-12 as per the red sea suppliment program that I am using, as well the Ca will be 460, and the Mg will be 1390. I am currently in the process of upping these throughout this week. If things look good I will increase the light slightly after I get my params where I want them. I did notice that I have a high use of alk in my tank throughout the week as it dropped from 8 to 6.4 over the week (this was when I did the test over 7 days to figure out my dosing regime).

Anywho, just thought I'd let you guys know things are looking a bit better and I am hopefully on the road to recovery!!

That's great news, hope it all works out.

YOu are better with the Kh not more than 10 as this can bring a lot of RTN STN in your coral. Too high Kh is a risk for this condition.

Natural sea water is between 6.5 to 7.5, no 11 or 12.

It is also best to maintain a mid range value for the Kh because if your test is off a bit, it won't be so drastic. If you keep it at 12 and your test is off you might reach 14 or more....even 11 is incresing the risk of RTN.

Good to know Danielle. The alk is that high in the salt I use. Double check and it matched.

Well if that's the case I'm almost where I wanna be with my alk. Just a little higher and I should be good.