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Chloramine - check your water source!
I just found out that Saskatoon uses chloramine. I don't have chloramine filters in my RO/DI unit. This makes me wonder about some of the issues I've had with my reef tanks... :neutral:
For those that don't know, chloramine is a chemical used by water treatment facilities. Some facilities choose to use chloramine as opposed to chlorine. In order to remove chloramine you have to break the bind of the chlorine and ammonia, then both need to be removed. Chloramine will not off-gas like chlorine will so adding an airstone to a bucket of water will not remove it. Typical carbon also will not remove chloramine. If your water source contains chloramine you need chloramine-specific filters in your RO/DI unit before the RO membrane. Chloramine should damage the RO membrane (and irritate/harm the reef inhabitants), although my RO membrane is 18 months old now and I don't have any issues with it. I can't wait to get the chloramine-specific filters in from BRS and do a big waterchange! :eek: Please either send an email in to your water works division or check your local city website, you should double check. Thanks to one of our local reefers who tipped me off on this! EDIT: Please check out Buckeye Field Supply's post on Page 5, post #43 for a professional answer to chloramines. Thanks Russ! |
Why don't you just use Prime to remove it ?
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I use ro, but I get it from the water fill station, so its no deionized, I do still use prime though as our local water is treated with chloramine as well, luckily the RO has the extra membranes to remove chloramine. We switched to ro for drinking to as I found out our water has mercury in it too! its at a "safe" level, but whats safe? :razz:
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Canadian tire sells RO filters for chloramine
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reminds me, time to change my pre-filters.
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For those suggesting Prime, it is kinda difficult to get Prime into the water before the water goes through the RO/DI unit. After reading the article that fencer posted it sounds like monochloramine (the most common of three different chloramines) goes through the RO membrane not damaging it, but still getting to the tank. In which case adding Prime to the RO/DI product water could be a decent alternative.
Other references suggest that with a typical RO/DI unit the carbon block will convert the chloramine to chlorine and ammonia. The carbon will then convert that chlorine to chloride, which the RO will remove. The ammonia will make it through the RO where the DI will remove it. This would explain why I seem to burn through DI resin faster than what the TDS going to it suggest. There seems to be rather a bit of confusion on the subject! Several references suggest that catalytic carbon is required to break the bond of ammonia and chlorine. Hmmm... I'm going to order a test kit. I wanted a chlorine kit anyway. Quote:
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this may provide some insight as to why it seems that truly beautiful full blown SPS tanks seem to be zone specific......anyone else ever notice that or is it just me?
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Yeah, I have been noticing that lately Doug.
Ok, I found this written in 2009. This written by Charles Metsis, President of SpectraPure. I bolded some interesting and/or important points. Quote:
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Anyone know if north Edmonton uses chloramine?
And I think of you use prime for chloramine it'll just turn it into ammonia. Just don't know what the concentration is |
Interesting! I better contact the city and ask if it's used in BC. Funny this was just mentioned on Mr Saltwater Tank passed Friday.
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Victoria uses chloramine for it's water. I've never addressed it in my system though....
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ahhh, I see lol. I wonder if putting prime in it the bubbling an airstone like you would for chlorine if that would take care of the rest? probably not haha
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For Metro Vancouver (including Burnaby reefers), I found this posted by the government:
"Metro Vancouver draws its water from Capilano, Seymour and Coquitlam sources and distributes it through its waterworks systems to member municipalities after treatment. As a part of the provision for treating water, Metro Vancouver uses chlorine as a primary disinfectant for Seymour and Capilano source waters. Coquitlam source water uses ozone and ultraviolet (UV) light as primary disinfectants. These source waters are subsequently re-chlorinated at various regional secondary disinfection facilities installed in 1998. The disinfectant dosages are monitored at the regional chlorination facilities using on-line potentiometric chlorine analyzers. The Seymour-Capilano Filtration Plant (SCFP) which is located near Rice Lake in the Lower Seymour Conservation Reserve went to full filtration on January 15th, 2010 and operated successfully throughout 2010. The Seymour source water is now be treated (filtration, corrosion control and disinfection) at SCFP and is conveyed by regional water mains to member municipalities for distribution to homes, businesses and industry. The primary disinfection facility at Seymour Falls Dam continued to operate until July 22, 2010. Metro Vancouver discontinued chlorination of the Seymour source at Seymour Fall Dam on July 29th, 2010. When the twin tunnel component of the SCFP project is complete, the Plant will treat 1.8 billion litres of water from both the Seymour and Capilano sources. SCFP was constructed in the fall 2009, and is the largest of its kind in Canada. It includes the world’s largest ultraviolet disinfection system." |
I called the city of Coquitlam and Metro water. They told me that they DO NOT use chloramine as a additive. The lady who answered the phone went on to tell me about how chloramine does produce naturally through the clean water process. I did look up the natural formation of chloramine. http://www.lenntech.com/processes/di...hloramines.htm
It seems that only thing will take out chloramine will be rox carbon in your ro system. I am not too sure if its gonna make a difference since my ro out always reads 0 ppm maybe I'll change my carbon filter to rox and see if it make any difference in the tank. |
What is this special filter I need? I have a 5 stage system and seems to be working fine in edmonton here. I don't use any prime....
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I had checked with the City of Calgary before I purchased my RO/DI unit to see if they used chloramine to treat the water. This is the information they gave me.
There are two treatment facilities for the City of Calgary. So it depends which part of the city you live in as to where your water is treated. Bearspaw (from Bow River): Uses chlorine gas. Glenmore (from Glenmore Resevoir): Uses sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) |
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Can chloramines be removed from water? Chloramines remain active in the water system for a considerably long period of time. Like other molecules, chloramines contribute to the total amount of dissolved solids in the water. Like chlorine, chloramines are selectively reactive and may have damaging affects when they remain in the water for too long. When chloramines are present, there are usually trace amounts of ammonia and hypochlorite in the water as well. Chloramines are hardly ionic. As a result and because of the low molecular weight, chloramines, mainly monochloramine, are difficult to remove from water by reverse osmosis (RO) or water softening. Boiling and distillation cannot be used either. Substances for chlorine removal cannot be used for the removal of chloramines. Sunlight and aeration may aid chloramine removal. Chloramines can be removed by means of a granular active carbon filter. This filter brings down chloramine concentrations from 1-2 ppm to less than 0,1 ppm. One must make sure that the active carbon comes in contact with chloramines for a significant amount of time. An active carbon filter is a selective, which means it also removes other compounds, such as chlorine (reduction to chloride), hydrogen sulphide, organic compounds, THM, pesticides and radon. When these compounds are present in water, this will influence the capacity of the filter. The amount of chloramines in the water can be determined by measuring the 'total chlorine' residu. This means measuring the 'total amount of chlorine' or the 'amount of chlorine compounds'. Read more: http://www.lenntech.com/processes/di...#ixzz1j5cuyo1k |
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its important to remember that that most household RO systems are just running a low micron prefilter and a ro membrane.
as BBLinks article stated activated carbon will pretty much get rid of all of the chloramine. Most of your aquarium grade RO/DI units use atleast one carbon stage as part of prefiltering. i guess the question is how effecient is the carbon block at removing chloramines and when would it be exhausted. IS there a hobby grade kit we can purchase for chloramine testing? |
To the best of my knowledge, RO systems rated for chloramine simply incorporate two carbon stages. I've only skimmed through the linked articles briefly, but my own system came with two carbon stages & was rated for chloramine removal because of that. When I found out Greater Vernon uses chlorine, I removed the activated carbon stage & added another poly pre filter in its place. So now I have a 5 micron poly, a 1 micron poly, 0.5 micron carbon block 'chlorine guzzler', RO membrane & finally DI. Been running for close to 3 years, DI is still good, membrane still good. Only thing I've ever replaced is the first stage 5 micron poly. Tap water TDS is 210-220.
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In EPCOR's distribution system, the total residual chlorine is composed entirely of chloramine. Chloramine is a disinfectant that results when chlorine is combined with ammonia. It is a much weaker disinfectant than free chlorine but it stays in water longer, is more stable in distribution systems, and can more effectively penetrate any film or deposit on a pipe to kill bacteria. Our approval sets limits of 0.5 - 2.5 mg/L for drinking water. EPCOR's treated water contains an average of 2.19 mg/L. |
hmmmm ..... wont the RO stage or DI resin remove it?
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from Spectrapures site (in reference to their carbon blocks)
http://www.spectrapure.com/SYSTEM_BREAKDOWN.htm CARBON BLOCK PRE-FILTER (2nd Stage Filter) A Carbon Filter also has specific ratings that range from 5, 1 and 0.5. Each rating determines how much chlorine is removed in gallons of water. The 5 micron can remove chlorine for up to 6,000 gal, the1 micron for up to 9,000 and the 0.5 micron 20,000. This filter is in the 2nd stage. It removes chlorine, organics, heavy metals, trihalomethanes, pesticides and many other chemical pollutants. It will also break-up chloramines, which is chlorine bonded with ammonia ( removes the chlorine and leaves the ammonia). (Only the 0.5 micron carbon block filter removes trihalomethanes, pesticides, volatile organic chemicals and 99.95% of giardia and cryptosporidium cysts.) A Carbon Filter will usually lasts approx. 4-6 months ,depending on micron rating for the filters, usage and the quality of your tap water. The best way to determine when your Carbon Block Pre-Filter needs replacement is to use a chlorine test kit. Any chlorine level above 0.1 ppm will cause damage to the membrane and indicates that the carbon block filter must be changed. |
I was told by the people at Spectrapure that carbon, especially GAC, will break the chloraimine bond and remove the chlorine and the DI resin will remove the ammonia.
I run a 5 micron carbon block, a GAC cartridge, then a 1 micron block before my RO membrane. |
chloramine is nothing new, most municipality water systems are going to be mandated to use it when the new federal drinking water gidelines come out. chlorine itself is a instantanious steralizer with no real residual effect so most places where the water has to travel a distance there is no chlorine left in your water when it gets to you, by using chloramine it insures the disinfectant propertys of the water last untill you use it protecting you from older pipe sections which may be contamanated.
Kamloops uses RO for its water, but also adds chloramine. Quote:
In victoria we have had chloramine for as long as I can remember and all I did was run different filters. for my system I ran a 25 to 1 micron absolute membrain (bigger 4x10") then I ran two carbon blocks, then an amonia guzzeler (home depot canuck rubber and a few other places have these. might be a different name but there for filtering out amonia.) then went into my RO and through my DI. Steve |
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I used my RO membrains for seven years befor they started to degrade, and I atribute that to a proper selcection of prefilters and religious back flushing. Steve |
Been keeping track of gallons throughput of my RODI since setting it up in April '09 on an Excel spreadsheet. Other than the poly pre filters I prefer to use gallons throughput rather than months as criteria for when to change my carbon filter. The documentation for my 0.5 micron carbon block says it's "Highly effective for chlorine.... for up to 20,000 gallons at a rate of 1 GPM".
According to my calculations, I've put an estimated 12,600 gallons through my system in just under 3 years. I say estimated since I'm using not only gallons of pure water produced, but also adding 4 times the amount of pure to the total since there's an estimated 4 gallons of waste for every gallon of pure water produced. This all goes through the carbon block. The 1 to 4 ratio is an approximation & I can only guess that since I don't measure this every time I produce water. I'm a cheapskate & don't fancy the idea of changing my carbon filter after 4 months if I haven't come anywhere near the rated gallon amount the filter is supposed to be good for. When feasible, I also like to verify manufacturer's claims so that I don't knacker my RO membrane before its rated life. So a few months ago I decided to check for chlorine at the tap source as well as after my carbon block. Results follow, I feel warm & fuzzy that my carbon block is still good & can go for a few thousand gallons more. Sorry getting a little off topic from chloramine, but there has been some info provided in posts here regarding when to change certain filters. Two photos since it may be difficult to tell the colour difference, one made with flash & one without. Should be able to tell on the strip in left of photo chlorine is 0 whereas the one on right shows a touch of purple indicating the presence of chlorine. This of course is the one dipped into the source water & the left one is after the carbon block. https://public.blu.livefilestore.com...62e.JPG?psid=1 https://public.blu.livefilestore.com...61e.JPG?psid=1 |
Mike, will your test strips also check for chloramines?
Thanks |
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Thanks Mike.
I see on their website that they also sell a strip that tests for 7 parameters. Two of interest, free chlorine and total chlorine. I think the chloramines would be included in the total chlorine |
Ya, not a bad deal these strips. As you can see the one I have also does pH & alk. Don't recall if I tried one of these strips in my tank water. Might should do that some time & compare to the liquid test kit readings. According to their site, the strips may end up being more accurate due to less prone to errors as when counting drops of reagent with the liquid kits.
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If you're testing for chloramines, make sure the test kit is testing for "total chlorine" or "combined chlorine," not for "free chlorine." A test for "free chlorine" would misleadingly read zero in chloraminated water.
also by testing for amonia you can determin if there is chloramines present. heres a good read http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/ Steve |
would the chlorine test kits work with salt water? Thinking maybe testing for a possible buildup of chloramine in the display.
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So does this mean i have to put bubble stone in my after RO/DI water before using it? I am in NW so i guess I am using Bearspawn |
I sent an email a few days ago to SpectraPure asking some questions about chloramines and filter cartridges, but haven't received a reply yet. I will send a PM to Buckeye Field Supply...I'm surprised he hasn't hopped in on this thread yet.
Thanks for posting Mike, where do you get those test strips? I've been wanting to buy chlorine test strips...maybe they have one for chloramines too. I tested my RO/DI water for ammonia and there was no ammonia detected. I should test before the DI resin. Quote:
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The test strips are for pool/spa. You should be able to get them any place that has pool or spa maintenance stuff. I think I might have seen the kit at Wal Merde but I got mine at a spa/hot tub business outlet. It's an AquaChek as you can see in the photo I posted. They also make kits that test for 'combined' or 'total' chlorine, but I'm not sure what that means exactly... combined with what? May or may not be ammonia. I think I read somewhere in the research that once chlorine hits the water, it starts 'combining' with some of the stuff which it's designed to kill or neutralize. This may not necessarily be ammonia, which is what it's combined with to make chloramine? Confused yet? I sure as hell am & real glad Vernon just uses chlorine.
There's already some good info on chloramines & how to best deal with them for our application on the Spectrapure FAQ site: http://www.spectrapure.com/SYSTEM_BREAKDOWN.htm phideltreefer already posted the link but only provided a partial quote in is post here. If you read the whole article, most of your questions should be answered. "Our dual cartridge combination of DI-SF-CI-10 followed by DI-AR-CI-10 is an effective and more economical way to remove the ammonia" Steve's link to reefkeeping pretty well covers it too.... |
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