Massive sub pumps or cut into return line for skimmer?
 

I didnt know where to put this so I figured i would try here...
my skimmer is oversized and came with an inline 3800gph pump, running that with my return pump on my 100 gallon sump was just insane..... the water would empty in about 10 secons and i couldnt add enough to make it work logically with 2" of water gushing over my baffles....
So ive pulled one inline pump out and tried running the skimmer off of one overflow direct but it just isnt enough power to do anything significant...
So either i add 2 submersible pumps inside my sup for the skimmer and keep my high flow return just for the display and my reactors Or i cut 2 T's in my return lines and ball valve them to my skimmer aswell?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1ca/003-14.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1ca/001-15.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...h1ca/010-5.jpg

Any ideas or opinions would be Much appreciated :)

if the skimmer was designed for that pump, might need that amount of flow to work correctly. Also water in equals water out, so running it isn't going to drain your tank, it just pulls the volume of the skimmer itself.

I get the total volume water in/out... It was just too much for the small space as far as flow....
have to space it out better or find another way.
From what ive read you dont want alot of flow in your sump? so may water flowing an inch over my baffles is probably still not ideal....
I would really like to try and run it all off my return pump as its oversized as well and i can spare the flow I just dont want to burn it out.
Also if i go with sub pumps I probably wont get the amount of preassure i need for it anyways.... This will be the 4th time ive modified what i started for plumbing a week ago lol

What Mark said. You need to keep that pump on the skimmer. For future reference, pumps should never have any elbows on the intake line and the intake line should be as short as possible to reduce any flow restriction. I see the water is going into the skimmer from the furthest left compartment in the sump, where is the water going back to? Returning it to the second chamber (as far to the left in the chamber as you can) would be ideal in your particular sump. You should then add at least two more baffles between the second sump and the return pump. With that amount of flow in the sump you will need multiple baffles to filter out the microbubbles from the skimmer. The last baffle before the return pump should be off the bottom, not touching the bottom. So if you use 3 baffles your baffles would be off the bottom, on the bottom, off the bottom. I would suggest 1.5" between baffles and 1.5" off the bottom....I think, what's the width of your sump?

there are no elbows on the system other that what is supplied on the twisted attachments, the elbows are all on the drain side. Ill see if i can post a video of the flow perhaps to try and better explain... its not the baffles that will slow it down in this case its the 9000+GPH trying to run through them lol its just too much in my sump....
guys in the states are running this skimmer with dual mag 18s no problem and the guy who built it for me said on friday it could run on a number of diffrent pumps this one was way overkill and i thought i could make it work... i was wrong...
Im trying to come up with a diffrent solution now as the inline pumps are not an option unless i buy a 230 gallon for a sump...
my sump width is 16 3/4 inches

if i tap into the return lines with dual T's one on each and swap my 3800 for the 5800 i should have more than enough flow for both as the 3800 is currently rushing the water an inch over the baffles anyways.... I just dont want the added T's to burn the pump out. I have flex line going to the skimmer so it will be a straight shot other than the T itself...

first of all that is an insain sized pump for a skimmer that isn't a recirulating skimmer. do you have some more info on the skimmer? it might be possible to turn it into a recirc style then just have a nice 300 gal per hour feed it.

going of your overflow mostlikely won't help as you would probably need a 2" or bigger overflow to handle it.

as for elbows on the intake.. thats all fine as long as it is all sized properly.

Steve

Oh I see now...sorry, didn't look close enough the first time. The line with the ball valve is the return from the pump to the sump. So where's the skimmer pump and the intake then? Is that pump the pump that is manufacturer suggested to use?

The baffles aren't to slow the water down. The baffles are simply to filter out the microbubbles. If microbubbles get to the return pump the pump will chop them up even more and send them up to the display which is ugly and irritates corals.

Steve, it's a Beckett skimmer IIRC, that's why such a big pump.

http://www.bashsea.com/index.php/pro...wisted-skimmer

Im all for making sure i get it the flow it needs.... but i have to tame my sump flow down already and i am trying to find a 2 bird with 1 stone scenario :)

right now i have the skimmer being fed from one of my overflow lines direct and its almost working... but after 48 hrs theres no green i figure its not enough?

Myka, they do that by slowing the water down and smoothing out the flow, so the bubbles have time to rise to the top and pop. the exact purpose of baffles are either to controle water hight, or to slow down the movement of water enough to reduce turbulance and make it easier for bubble to leave the water stream.

Steve

Hustler, is there a PDF for this skimmer somewhere? I don't see much info on the website, like pump specs or anything. Did the pump come with it, or did you choose a pump for it separately?

Steve, baffles don't slow the water down, unless you consider the linear compression as slowing it down. 9000 gph is 9000 gph, the only way to slow that down is to make less flow. :lol: Baffles work by forcing the water into a shallow shape...it takes less time for bubbles to rise 1" than to rise 10".

ok it is beckett skimmer.. do you have a Mak4 pump? that should blast it. what brand is the pump that they sent with it? that is way way overkill for a beckett. what you want is about 1200gph on a pressure rated pump. the ones I built I started running of a mag 12, then later switched to a Mak4. I ran mine out of a 33 gal sump also, so only 1/3 of the sump was my skimmer draw area, then I returned the water to the first chamber of the sump. the best bet would be to find friends with spair pumps and get them to let you try out the pumps with it and see what you can find that works.

Steve

they do slow it down.. in most cases the actual baggle part of your sump will not allow the bubbles to be released, large ones maybe but not the micro bubbles. and I'll explain why with an example of the sump I built for my last tank.

I use 3 chambers the first is where everything is dumpped, so the water hits the first set of baffles. so now I am taking a large boddy of water with low flow, and forcing into a small body with high flow (throught the baffles) then it opens to another large area so we have a high velocity lamaner flow of water dumping into a large area. this auses the velocity of the water to slow right down, and it is here where you should get your bubbles released. I could go into Pressure changes befor, during and after the baffels but as long as we understand that the water does slow down after it leaves the baffels and dumps into a larger area then were good. my third chamber was just for the pump suctions so all my last set of baffles did was maintan the hight of the water in the middle chamber

I see what you're meaning, but that's not the baffles slowing the water down. :neutral: That's not really what the thread is about though. Hustler using one tall baffle between the second chamber and the return chamber with the water flowing over that baffle and falling down into the return chamber really makes whatever microbubble elimination program he's got going into a moot point.

I've never had a Beckett skimmer, so I don't know much about them other than they need a lot more flow than Venturi skimmers.

Seems like you've more or less figured out what you need to do already. You know you've got some oversized equipment, so the logical solution is to get some gear that more closely matches what your system requires. Oversizing is great in some situations, but certainly seems to be causing you more headaches. I assume you chose such a monster skimmer for future requirements of a heavy bioload? That's a great idea, but since your set up is in it's infancy & you currently have a very low bioload, you can't expect it to be pulling that much out, regardless of it's size.

My vote would be to get some smaller pumps, or as you suggest, a much larger sump. Appropiately sized, smaller pumps will have the advantage of saving you some power $$$s.

they actualy use about the same.. very simular requirments, a becket only needs about 800 gph to run properly, but will handle 1200 no problem, which is close to what my Mazzi injectors call for.

Why would they sell him a 3800 gph pump for his skimmer then? IIRC his return is about 5000 gph. Maybe he would be better off using the skimmer pump for his return, and then buy a smaller pump for the skimmer...??

from what i understand with this type of skimmer it will work with smaller pumps but the more you push through it the more it will pull out and thats why the big mother pump i ordered as this was a plus 6 skimmer so i got a pump to suit. That being said there must be some kind of minimum as per the size of skimmer... and this is where im lost

I run a 48" tall Beckett Skimmer. I have T'd off my return pump as close to the output as possible to give the slimmer the most it can get. Farther down the line of the return pump it's T'd off to feed 2 different frag tanks, then goes from the basement upstairs to feed my main display where it is choked off a bit so that the display gets a bit less flow. Mind you I'm running a 6000 gallon per hour pump, I don't think it's pressure rated though. You should have any problem at all T-ing your return pump as close to the output as possible to feed the skimmer, then valving it it off before it reaches the display to control how much the skimmer gets. Hope this helps.

That's a good idea Dez.

Hustler, you wanted an excuse to replace that return pump anyway didn't you? ;) Why don't you use the skimmer pump for the return, and tee it like Dez describes. Then you could slow down the flow to the display like I suggested awhile back in one of your other threads. You only need about 2000 gph going to your display anyway...use the rest of that 3800 gph for the skimmer.

What do you think Steve? About 1500 gph (after head loss and all that) good for that Beckett skimmer?

Mind you my skimmer is huge too. With 3800gph, it should be cake. The only thing is you should look for a backup pump in case anything fails. I have the exact same backup pump cause one pump literally runs everything on my tank. So if your pump dies, you're hooped without a quick replacement.

He could use the current return pump as the back up. He's using a huge spa pump for a return right now.

that should do it. one becket will run fine on 800gph (at the becket)

I have a 1/2 built skimmer in the shop right now that is 42" tall and probably about 15 gal of water in size (9" main body on a box with a 12" colection cup) I was going to do dual backet on it using two maK4's but now that I have had time to think about it I am going to make it in to a recirulating skimmer, using a couple needle wheel pumps and then have a flow of about 3 to 400 gal per hour flowing through it. this way you could easily feed it off the overflow of the tank.

I like Dez's idea of one pump for everything but like he said you need two of the exact same pumps to do that.
personaly I am having a hard time with the set up and how its plummed. do you have a better picture of the right side of your sump. it looks like that is where your "sucking from" and are you returning to the left end chamber with your skimmer? maybe a pic of the sump operating and then a description of whats comming and going from where..

I had a simular problem with my 33 gal sump I made and I had to do a couple designe changes for it to handle the 5000 gph I had going through that.

Steve

I will get a pic up asap,
The way its set up i have the skimmer draining into the bulkhead on the left where my overflow dump and my return inline taking it from far right
Myka, I bought 2 pumps 1 to replace my spa pump and the other for the skimmer :)
as of right now im running the 3800gpg as my return and its still overkill as far as sump flow over the baffles and i still have the 5800gph just sitting here plus my old spa pump so i should be covered for a back up either way :)
My rona was out of 1 1/2" Ts (always something) so im hooped till monday unless i find them elsewhere but this is the plan im sticking with LOL :)

You sure like big pumps... :lol: That's gonna burn your butt in a sw tank though.

I know maddame.. Im trying to kick the habbit... With all the headaches ive found i have to unlearn what i have learned... But atleast ill be prepared for whatever the next step is lo

You will have all sorts of FW "bad habits". ;)

ok, I wasn't going to ask... but whats wrong with big pumps in a SW tank? I use way bigger pumps in SW than I did in FW.

Steve

Steve, I was referring to a past conversation with Hustler about the 5000 gph return pump.

oh ok.. I'll go back to my rock and wait for a picture then. :mrgreen:

I would have answered sooner but I had to make a emergency run to Victoria and back yesterday..

Steve

heres a pic :) the rest can be seen in my tank build update :)
Thanks again for all the help guys..... and DEZ lol
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ish1ca/028.jpg

hmm.. just got a quick sec here, just got up and I have to go back to work in an bit, but looking at the pictures of your build where I can realy see the sump, if I am right, you have your skimmer sucking off the chamber that you overflows spill into and returning to the middle.

When I set up a sump I set the skimmer up in a recirulation set up. so I suck off the last chamber and return to the first.

you will have problems doing this also because you made you last chamber so small. if it were my sump, I would redesign your second set of baffels and also move them to the right to give you a larger volume of water where you return pump draws from. maybe double the volume. then I would make your skimmer suck off the same chamber. and return to the intake of the sump.

Steve

Ohh my sump has a few flaws for sure.... Its not "ideal" but it will have to do... at one time i had the skimmer running direct from an overflow..... but it didnt pan out....
Its running off the return now and thats that.... to be honest with the two clowns and the few corals..... it hasnt even made it yellow yet nevermind any green or cake.... my water is crystal and very little if any wast ATM.... and the skimmer will eat anything that goes in there but it isnt ideal I know....
This is my first "kick at the cat" so to speak so Ill be happy figuring out what all this does and make it work 75%..... the next build ill have some background behind me and it will work alot better :)

You have a bunch of live rock in there, you should be getting skimmate...maybe it isn't dialed in ideally? Could you take a pic of the skimmer froth? Take it so we can see the water in the skimmer, the froth, and the cup if you can (and you want to lol).

well I sure can... Its only been going 2 days.... and its just starting to give me foam :) havent really givin it any time to be trialed by jury just yet lol.... I just know the 2 lil clown eat a pinch of misis every 2 days and eat it all and the 40 crabs eat thier poop and the snails eat theres and so on...... I need some fish LOL

Well here they are...
I dont know how long it taked for a skimmer like this to "break in" but it hasnt yet.
Also i dont know if I have enough to even make any waste in my tank?
If i do.... and it did.... Then Ive got to cut the plumbing again and buy 2 big bugger sub pumps :(
Its getting about 2000gph now...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1ca/001-16.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...h1ca/004-9.jpg

Don't know much about your type of skimmer, but those bubbles look way too big & not enough either. I think main chamber should be almost white with finer bubbles, so definitely some tweaking of pumps/air mixture required.

not working very good for a beckett skimmer. bubble size eh... beckets arnt as fine as needle wheels and such, but the cylinder should be pure white.

Steve

I'm not sure how a Beckett works...is there an air intake to adjust? That skimmer isn't working very well. Even if there is nothing to skim (which there should be something in your tank because you have rock) the chamber should be totally white with bubbles. Maybe email your pic to the manufacturer and ask them go to get it working properly. As far as breaking in, I've never had a skimmer take more than an hour to produce foam, and not more than a week to produce a cup of green/brown skimmate.