Edmonton Freshie walking the plank, Any advice to ease the wallet/headaches :)
 

Hey all,
Im mel from edmonton.
I am a long time freshwater keeper zero hours saltwater newbie :)
My 300 has a giant sump with room for a skimmer,
I would love to do a reef setup with a community of fish and critters and right now I am trying to price out a rough cost to get going...
from what Ive gathered so far ill need,
-Salt
-Skimmer
-Big mother lights
-Live rock/live sand
-water/light measuring tools
Here is what Im working with right now,
300 gallon 96x24x30 with a 6x18x24 sump and a Giant pump (from pices store rack system) Tons of mag powerheads and fresh water drip automatic system with chlorimine carbon filters run into the tank and drains to the sewer.
Where I am at right now.......
its still up and running fresh, so Ill dump it and scrub everything dismantle the sump and figure out how to rebuild it for salt IE no bio balls or sponge or adding new baffles protiene skimmer, reactor ect ect and go from there as a brand new build.
I will probably do half live rock and half base, do i need to go with live sand?
Can i fill it with filtered tap water and comercial salt mix or do i have to go with an RO unit? would it be safe for the live rock so i can start the bio cycle?
Im in no hurry for fish and corals but I would like to set it up right the first time and have a good base to pick and choose where it will eventually end up :)
any advice is greatly appreciated..... I hope to get into meetings and whatnot here soon once i know what im doing LOL

I have soooo many questions..... everything i read contradicts the last page i was on lol. I would like a few corals but Im not looking for a big garden....Ill use a few fake ones and toss some real ones around them....
-will 300lb of live rock be enough or can i cut some down with live sand?
-Is our water decent enough to use with a carbon filter for water changes and filling?
-Will i need a chiller/UV/CO2?
-are bio balls useless in a sump as apposed to a bunch of live rock?
-

Well I can start off with a few questions:

Usually 1lb of live rock per gallon is recommended, so somewhere in the neighborhood 300lbs is going to be needed. For that kind of amount you definatly want to buy that from this board from someone with a big tank thats shutting down. Many people don't recommend bioballs because they need to be rinsed weekly to keep nitrates down. As for sandbed being used to reduce the amount of rock, I would certainly go the rock route. you don't need live sand, with the live rock it will eventually make the sand "live" aswell.

Tap water can certainly be used with a declorinator as I am sure your familiar with and just synthetic salt mix will work just fine for you. For your original cycle I recommend just buying cheaper salt mix, then when you get into corals you can start mixing in better stuff if you so choose.

Chillers are only needed if you have heat problems, generally if you have a/c in your house you should be fine running metal halide. If you don't and your temps rise past 84F for too long you can try fans, if that doesn't work then you might need a chiller. UV sterilizers can be added later, they are good to combat green algea after scrape the glass and will help with water clarity, but most people don't use them.

CO2 is something that I am not as familiar with but lots of people with bigger tanks seem to have them.

Take your time let your system cycle for 4-6 weeks before you add some hardy fish, then wait a few months after that before you start adding corals. You can add some durable softies a few weeks after the fish but nothing delecate for sure. Do lots of research before you buy fish or corals as its the number 1 biggest newb mistake. You need to make sure everything is going to be compatible. I wouldn't personally put fake coral with real coral because it will be obvious which ones are fake when they are next to each other.

If I missed anything I am sure someone will jump on and answer it for you, otherwise feel free to pm me.

Oh and welcome to Canreef!

-I'd buy dry rock instead of live rock. You can get a couple of pieces of live rock from people who are selling it on canreef to "seed" the dry rock. There are a couple of reasons for this. I wish this is the way I had gone and is definitely the way I would go now for the following reasons:
1. It is way cheaper than buying liverock from a store. 300 pounds is going to cost a lot from a store. If you do find a lot cheap from another reefer, #2 is the reason I would still go with mainly dry rock.
2. You avoid bringing in things you don't want into your system. These things could include: killer crabs, killer mantis shrimp, aiptasia, majano anemones, red bugs, bad algaes. When buying the live rock from fellow reefers, you are going to want smaller pieces that you can fully inspect to ensure they don't have these on them.
Dry rock will make your cycle time longer, but it is definitely worth it.

-Sand is a personal thing. There have been a lot of reefers that go completely without sand and have awesome systems. Sand is needed for some things to live though, so you need to decide what will work best for you. You can just ask for a small cupfull of live sand to "seed" dead sand rather than going with all live.

- You could get away with less than 300 pounds in your main system. Sand will help, but the main issue will be how many fish and creatures you have in there. The more fish and creatures, the more rock you should use.

-I would use RO water for water changes and top ups. You introduce crap into your system otherwise. For the initial startup, I just used tap water and cheap salt though.

-U/V and CO2 are not necessary. A chiller is only necessary if you go with high powered metal halide lights or if your house runs quite hot. I would take a look at the new LED lights out there. They are more money, but you are saving on your electric bill, and the cost of replacing bulbs every year. They will pay for themselves in a few years. Also, LED run the coolest of all bulbs, so a chiller wouldn't be necessary unless your house is hot. I already have a light fixture otherwise I would be buying one of the new fixtures. They each have their own benefits.

-Do not use bioballs in a reef tank. Bioballs turn into a nitrate factory and your system will suffer a lot. You can use live rock in the sump though.

You are going to have a lot of information thrown your way, so I will leave just one more tip for now. Get a lot of flow from powerheads in your system. Koralia's are decent and cheap and create a lot of flow, Tunze's and Vortech's are the best, but you are paying a lot of money.

I replied in red.

PS: This is my 6,000th post. I think it's a good one. :D

Awesome info guys :) thanks a bunch
Ive watched every LAreef guy video on youtube twice and still im more confused than ever.
for the lights i was thinking a tube that is fan cooled with 2 or 3 400w metal halides? and a few HO flourecents to balance the spectrum., and with no heaters the tank runs at 76f with the big drive pump im using. I dont know exactly what temp im supposed to be locked in at but I hope that will be fine?
Ive been digging around for live rock from local tanks already but i cant find any branch type pieces so i may have to order them.... ive got 30 inches of height to deal with so bigger chunks will help. Ive shipped plenty of fish from van or ontario but this is all new to me with salt

There is no need for halides unless you're going with high light corals. T5s will be just fine for fish and some basic corals. In fact there are people using T5s on high light coral tanks. Using halides on your tank will be a huge waste of electricity imo, as well as increased top up, and increased humidity in your house. For saltwater 78 degrees is a good number to aim for.

Personally, 300 pounds of rock is way too much. I use 1/2 pound per gallon, I'm pretty successful with it. Lots of room for fish to swim, lots of space to mount corals, and I have no measurable NO3. I'm also not a fan of dry rock, but it is cheaper, so think about mixing it up. I'm never really sure what pests people are concerned with, I've used 500 pounds of real rock over my time in the hobby and once got a worm I didn't like, I just removed that rock. Any crab that comes with it is still in my tank. The loss of all the good stuff isn't worth worrying about the bad stuff (that you could never ever get).

Welcome to CanReef.

All great advise :)

The most important thing though, "Take it nice and slow", patience is a virtue. Will save you a h*ll of a lot of money too.

I converted my first tank from Fresh to Salt a few years back, and never looked back. I just added salt to my current water and ran it for a month. Didn't take too much scrubbing, as most of the algae died off anyhow.

Drop by anytime to the store, and we'd be happy to answer any questions you may have too.

Ken - BWA

Welcome to canreef!
Looks like you have tons of great advise to digest already, so no need for me to add any. There are already a couple of "newbies" just starting up, so read their posts as well.

300 gal plus sump, wow, you're off to a great start already. We only wish our tanks were that large. I can just imagine what I can do with 300gal, and HOW MUCH I can personally blow on my credit cards:twised:

Good luck.
Lenny.

Ha, with a 300 gal to start with, the world is your oyster, pun intended. I went straight into a marine set up, no fresh water experience, but a few friends/relatives have FW tanks so I know a little about that scenario. IMO the things that are quite a bit different between FW & SW are lighting, flow & water quality in no particular order.

Probably the first thing on the agenda would be water quality, best to get a RODI system & use pure water to mix up your soup with from the outset. No unkowns getting into your system that way.

Next, I'd say flow. Even during the cycle you'll want good water movement, so look into getting some propeller pumps since they are better at moving water in all the nooks & crannies than the laminar flow from conventional powerheads or pumps.

Lighting.... at the start you won't need to worry too much about it. It's going to take some time to cycle that bad boy, so whatever you have now for FW will probably be ok. Then, once you start adding livestock, you can put together a lighting plan. Chances are you're going to add a fish or two first, so again, lighting does not need to be ultra bright for them. As far as coral, good idea to start with some easier softies & LPS, so now you can look at bumping up the light intensity a little. It will probably be a few months before you're to that point, so you'll have plenty of time for additional research. This will be one of the larger expenses for a tank your size, so choose well depending on what your ultimate goal is. LED is definitely poised to edge out the current MH/T5HO technology, but still quite costly. Either way, lights are going to be $$$$$ if you're thinking full reef with an abundance of SPS coral. With 300 gals you can cram a few critters in there. Best of luck.

Here is a shot of my sump and tank, Its going to be a bit tricky getting a skimmer inside it and bigger chunks of live rock but there is plenty of room. I also have a secondary pipe right from the pump going back into the sump i may be able to tap into to run something like a uv or skimmer??? Also i guess all the bio balls and my pails and pails of ceramic rings will have to come out...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...h1ca/005-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...h1ca/014-1.jpg
Its got 2 2" inch downpipes on each side in the overflows and 2 1 1/2" return pipes on each side that i will probably have to figure how to put loc lines onto with a manifold of some kind???, The pump is really large so it blows like crazy thus the dump pipe back into the sump or the fish looked like they were being flushed LOL
It was set up with tons of overkill as i used to keep asian arowanas so im hopeing i wont need much more current or pumps just better direction but we will see.

Nice Aros!!

Well the pump (rebuilt) is from a display rack filter system, Its .25HP to 1.5HP..... and from what google says up to 68GPM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...h1ca/022-3.jpg
Ive got it on the lowest setting and it still dumps the 90 gallon wet dry in a few min....

I don't recognize that pump. What's the label on it say? Any model names/numbers? I think the pump might be a bit too big for a reef sump...that sounds like it is over 4000 gph which would be 13x turnover or more. Too much flow through the sump washes a bunch of microbubbles from the skimmer up into your tank which makes the water look cloudy and irritates the corals. It is also a waste of electricity, and probably adds more heat to the tank than you need to. Anything more than 6x turnover through the sump is a waste as that is all the skimmer can process anyway.

Personally, I would replace it with two 1000 gph (at 5' head) pumps. this way if one ever breaks down you still have the other pumping. Redundancy is really important when you start getting into bigger and/or more expensive systems.

You didn't post how much clearance you have under there...?

the stand is 32" high but between the top of the sump and stand its 10" give or take. I can put the skimmer on the opposite end and I have a few baffles in there to eat up any champange bubbles. It also causes very little heat or noise the tank runs at 76f with the heaters unplugged.
The pump is a century lasar BN50.
I will eventually change it out for a diffrent style pump with better power ratings but Im hopeing for now it will do the trick to get everything seeded and cycled as I have a list that wont stop growing to buy for a tank that up till now has had everything its needed to be a show tank and run like a top lol
It sucks all my fish head friends are also all freshies and no one is even interested in salt so im basing everything on what i can read here or youtube... I will be making a few trips to local pet stores for more info but I always seem to get sold on something that never quite cuts it when i get home lol. I really appreciate the help you all are throwing my way.... Seems this was the place to find :)

I Googled your pump. No wonder I don't recognize it...it's a spa pump. can't find flow rating for it. Will post if i do.

I plan to buy new pumps in the future depending where the tank goes as far as inside needs, Ill have to buy a second if i go the sea swirl route anyways. Looks like i have about 30" from base of sump to top of wood.
My sump has a tray at the top of the first chamber i use floss in now and then 30-40 gallons of bio balls that drains into the main sump.... then i have about 3 feet of open chamber before the pumps bulkhead on the end so I will have to add a baffle there for sure Or atleast make an egg crate baffle with a foam to eat up the bubbles but there is plenty of room for a skimmer in there. I may go with a Skimz sm251 if i cant find anything better or cheaper??? I would like to try and keep critters in my sump if possible as Ive always wanted a mantis shrimp but i would rather all the other crab/shrimp type cleaners in the display tank. I will need to do a ton of research to find out who can live with who and then build thier reef to what they need i guess.
I always wanted a lionfish, and Im not terribly interested in the small school fish or anything that looks like a chiclid LOL More like angles and and your typical larger salt fish But i also really wanted stars and shrimp/crabs or even a lobster :) This is all way down the road i know but i should still prepare.
Have any of you ever dealt with eco live rock from back east? cheap and clean live rock with free delivery???

........................

Myka
Thanks for all the super fast and well informed replies :) You are making this alot easier than it first seemed.
I dont suppose there is a walkthrough somewhere or a simple list laid out for newbies that explains type of fish with coral and crustation compatability?
I have lists from my suppliers all the time either from back east, vancouver or even staeside when flights permit..... but with zero hours in the salt realm i find myself a little blind where with fresh i understood it all at a glance

You're welcome. There are lots of opinions though, mine are just mine. Take others' advice too. There is no cut and dry method although I've been around long enough (18 yrs) to know what is easy and straight forward to recommend to a newbie. I say partake in the KISS (keep is simple stupid) method, and then as you gain experience and understanding you can integrate more equipment and more complicated methods if you so choose.

Your suppliers? What store do you own/operate? When coming from the USA corals require CITES permits, fish just require wildlife permits, invertebrates I'm not so sure. Just an FYI.

A good skimmer will hurt your pocketbook, but it may be the saving grace keeping you in the hobby. You can always buy a used skimmer and then if all else fails and you do lose interest you will be able to sell it for the same (or near) price you bought it. That doesn't hurt so much.

I dont have a store at all, but Ive dealt with tons of exotic suppliers on the freshwater side that are also probably salt suppliers to some of you.
My track record with fresh has been super exotic and costly but mostly in the livestock and not so much in the equiptment.... Ive been keeping arowanas since i was 14 and i had my first super red asian at 18 when they were insanly priced and alot higher quality that what most are avalable now And they too require a cities 1 permit microchipped with a TAG ID number....
I have had an amazing track record with even daily maintnence on HUGE bio loads with thousands of dollars swimming around for years.. But its been alot more basic parameters and knowing what works and sticking with it approach thus Im a newbie to salt.... but im not a beginner to the hobby ;)
If my questions seem very basic its because Im looking for the most info i can squeeze out of an answer and in any hobby the more you know the less you fail and one day it will become fun like everyone else seems to be having :)
Here is the pride of this tank that I am now switching over.... She was a one of a kind in her day and I hope I can make it there eventually in the salt world :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...IMG_1937-1.jpg

So if you sold a super red you should be able to buy a Bubble King. :D There really aren't very many fish in the saltwater world that fetch $1000+. Most fish are under $100, still lots more under $250. I do know how much those fish are worth in that tank, so it does have me wondering why you are flinching at spending $1000+ on a skimmer.

lol you are right myka :) I am being a bit ornery lol
Im doing my very best to addapt to the new school of thinking..... but even in my younger years i remember an old saying a gent who used to own his own pet store would say.... In salt the hobby is all about whats under the tank and not about whats in it.... I dont want all the bells and whistles under there I can do that with my back and arms bi weekly lol..... Im just trying to find a happy balance between toys and having actual animals in there. Of course i want to do it right the first time..... but I dont want to be the sucker that buys the fluval X5 right off the shelf for $500+ and see someone making an AC500 $42 outdo it with a few simple mods.... I understand the quality vs import and all that but there is a point where really its just a brand.... and your paying top dollar for it

Yep, the skimmer game is a tricky one with plenty of "innovations" coming along frequently, some worthwhile, some not so much. It's a hot topic of discussion but there have been a few recent studies that show there's no significant difference in performance between some of the newer technologies & the older ones. There's definitely a threshold where the cost of innovation & material outweighs the claimed performance increase. If cost is no object, knock yourself out, but I'm on a limited budget & have found my old school, wooden air diffuser driven, counter current model to work quite nicely. Of course for a 300 gallon heavily stocked system you'll need something fairly large, but that doesn't mean it has to break the bank. Even the older technologies can be adapted to large skimmer requirements. If I'm not mistaken, contact time between water & bubbles is one of the major factors affecting performance. This means either a very tall skimmer (not an option with sump in cabinet under display) or the shorter, more powerful recirculating type skimmers. This also means more electricity and potentially noise.

Ok, here's the thing. A skimmer isn't "bells and whistles". Controllers, fancy powerheads, crazy lights with replicated thunderstorms...those are bells and whistles. There is a certain amount of bragging power with a Bubble King though, it's is not leaps and bounds better than other skimmers in its class when it comes to performance, but it is the type of skimmer that you will "never" have to replace. Bubble King makes huge skimmers...over $10,000. When a company is making $10,000 skimmers they know what they are doing.

I'm a cheap skate...I buy everything used. Although I did buy my last skimmer new (a SWC) after I looked for several months for a used skimmer of a better brand. I really wanted a better brand, but I'm happy with the skimmer I chose although I know I will likely be replacing the pump within the net year or two which I'm sure will really **** me off when it happens. :lol: I'm pretty patient when it comes to looking for used equipment, but my tank was really starting to suffer with just a small spare skimmer I had on it (an under-sized SWC) and a tank maintenance company that didn't clean it well enough to make up for that.

Doing physical maintenance on the tank is great, I'm big on that too. The trouble is that being a newbie you don't know what you're looking for and your problems will likely start to get out of control before you notice. I can tell you right now by looking at my tank that the alkalinity is somewhere in the 6 dKH right now because of the way the corals are looking. I better fix that right away. I haven't tested the tank in 2 1/2 weeks (bad on me).

Which btw, you need some powerheads! We haven't talked much about that either. You're going to be looking at adding 30-60x turnover in the tank by the use of powerheads. In order of awesomeness (and price!) check out Vortech ($$$), Tunze, and Koralia. Powerheads get the fish poop and other detritus suspended in the water column so it can go down the drains and into the skimmer. If the crap can't get to the skimmer then the skimmer doesn't do much good. :lol:

Well I paid for the skimmer and the RO/DI unit..... Got a 120 gallon water reservoir for the laundry room and now Im waiting on the live rock to get started.... A couple weeks and Ill be up and running :)
I guess i should start a build thread? gotta figure that out
Thanks again everyone for all the help

Oh.... and for suspense purposes...... I went plus 4 on the skimmer lol didnt cheap out in the end :)

Awesome!!

Still waiting on the skimmer delivery date....but i have the tank all dumped and scrubed and filling with the new ro/di unit..... be a couple days till she is full so in the mean time Ill be working on a better way to use the sump with a refridgium??? and drill my hole for the inline skimmer and get the carbon and GFO reactor all rigged up.
Ill probably have to mix my salt right in the tank but I can heat it and add powerheads right to it before it gets to the height of the overflow so I may try to get some live rock in there with all that before i get the sump going.

"Refugium"

Ya, get the water mixed up to the right salinity (1.025-6 for reef, 1.021-3 for fish) and get your rock in there. Then you will have time to look for pests (and treat if need be) as well as arrange rocks and re-arrange, and arrange again. :lol:

Where did you end up getting rock from?

There is a local lady on here shutting down her tank 210G? that has around 200 and a guy ive bought from before has 100lbs of fijii waiting for me to get my but in gear, If i add anymore it will be macro or ecoreef dead rock as I dont want any more chance of pests :) Im really looking for some big shelve chunks or branches to fill that 8 feet up but it seems pretty slim... Im trying not to be in a rush but 3k in addons and i havent even got lights yet......Im getting excited :)

Ya, starting up a 300 isn't cheap that's for sure. I would suggest you try out a couple "islands" of rocks. Try to have as few as possible touching the bottom of the tank...the less in the sand the better.

I was going to go sandless as the bottom of my tank has the black vinyl coating aswell.... but it seems that everyone recomends it....
I wish i could go black sand even lol

then go black sand =) ppl do it... not my cup of tea but it's your slice of reef right? the white sand will help light the underside of your corals a little bit through reflection.

UggggHHHH
way to go lastlight lol
I just gave my black sand away after taking 5 hours to get it all outa there....
Im going to try a light white sandbed and go from there as Im a pro at removing it now without scratching or disturbing lol I just want it smooth enough for soft bellied fish aswell and I figured like I had before if everything was black but the rock and fish it would showcase it more from a distance???
Also in freshwater the fish get right stressed out with a light substrate so its alwasy been a custom for me to go none or dark???