quarantine tank question
 

I am coming up to the point where I'm about to make my first fish purchase. have decided to set up a quarantine tank with an empty 10 gal that I have with a heater, powerhead, and hob filter. I will use water from the main tank to fill the qt and let the filter sit in the main tank for a while to establish more bacteria for the qt tank. my question is, am I going to need live rock in there as well? I have no sump that I can take rock from and replace later, and i would prefer not to take rock from the main tank each time i set up a qt tank. The same goes for sand as well. Will i be ok without rock or sand in a qt tank?

you don't need sand or rocks in there just in case you want to add meds. Just use some PVC pipping or something similar for hidding places.

Abe is correct. You don't need rock or sand in a quarantine tank because in case you medicate your fish in the quarantine tank and many of the medicine will kill off bacteria on rock and sand. Even worse is that those medicine will bind to rock and sand for a long time making them unsuitable for any display tank.
A HOB filter is good and make sure the filter pad is fully cycled because that will be your main biological filter. Put a NEW filter pad in your main tank to cycle the pad and put it in the HOB.
Good decision on the quarantine tank because not many people realize many benefits of a quarantine tank.

What he said. I had started a post, but then realized George had hit all the points I was going to say.

Thanks for the replies guys. I just wanted to be sure there was going to be enough bio filtration without the LR or sand. I will pick up some PVC piping today for hiding places. I have probably a week and a half yet before I buy fish I just want to cover my bases

IMO dont waste your time with a QT. You will inevitably catch something that ends up in your display. Concentrate on diet and health and the fish will fight off most ailments. The process of quarantining usually just creates stress and the fish ends up dying anyway.

EDIT: I prefer Ozone and UV sterilization.

@phreezee

Each to his/her own with regards to QT.

I usually don't but once in a while really wish I did.

@OP

My QT tank is a 20 gallon breeder with air stone, korallia 2, some dead 'live' rock (that I only ever use in the QT tank or else leave dry) and egg crate on top so that it catches light from my main display tank.

I don't use sand, filters or skimmers. I just make sure I vacuum all the crap out each day & do 25% water changes every 2-3 days.

Works for me (whenever I can be bothered to QT.)

.

YES you do need CURED liverock in there to filter water and avoid ammonia especialy in a small tank as a 10 gallons. I currently have a blue hippo tang, a kole tang and a damsel in a 21 gallons in quarantine in hyposalinity treatment. They had ick when I got them so I am treating them to get rid of ick with hypo. I have absolutely no trace of ammonia although I feed them a lot twice per day.

Without the liverock I would have tons of ammonia and fish death.

No need to treat with medication unless you get marine velvet and then you can remove the liverock and treat with copper if you ever get that but it's still kind of rare. The most common, very common, is ick and that,s easily treated with hypo and does not destroy your bio filter.

That way it's really trouble free to do quarantine.

The only drawback is if you get marine velvet you must remove the liverock and raise the salinity slowly 0.03 per day and then add Seachem Cupramine.

While you have liverock in there, use some small filter with floss and that will build up a bacteria colony in case you have to remove the liverock to treat. I always use my liverock when doing quarantine and that always gave me instant cycle. I use Totoka liverock because it is a very porous and efficiant filter.

wow, that's ridiculous.

I don't have anything in my display tank, never had. I always quarantine and always use hiposalinity to kill ick. Never had ick in my tank.

That,s such a BAD advise!

I recently quarantined a copperband butterfly fish that was very skinny. In quarantine I had the chance to acclimate the fish properly, treat it with prazipro for flukes and internal worms, and get him to eat food and fatten up, before I put it in my main tank. Without quarantine the fish would be dead. It is totaly ridiculous to assume that all tank have disease and that is a unavoidable thing. Can't believe this nonsense.

Not only quarantine does NOT stress the fish but it give the fish the possibility to acclimate withou being harrassed by other fish. Great time to get it to eat properly and to treat if needed and it is stupid to risk introducing marine velvet and kill ALL fish in the tank.

I have never lost a fish from quarantine! if you do, it,s probably because you don't do it right and have a tank that is not cycled and full of ammonia. There are ways to do it right.

Amazing how fast ammonia can built up so test for, but easily handled by frequent water changes and again you don't need LR.

IMO a 10g is way to small to quarantine much of anything.....and even a 20 is too small to quarantine tangs.....I briefly used a 33g as a q-tank and even that was too small for tangs...........the fish were extremely nervous and stressed and with nothing but a single piece of rock the fish never felt secure enough to start eating....I then stopped using a q-tank as I felt that the extra added stress of a) the size of the tank and lack of hiding places and b) having to chase/net/move the fish another time was not worth it.... JME

You should look at a quarantine tank that is 25% of the size of your tank that the fish will end up in. A 10 gallon tank should be good enough for a main tank that is 40 gallons or smaller. I have a 29 gallon for my 125 gallon main tank. It is just under the 25% rule. Larger fish should be kept in larger tanks, so the size of the quarantine tank should go up with it. What is the size of your main tank? If you are putting in smaller fish to start with (least aggressive/smaller fish should be added first to a new setup), the 10 gallon should be fine.

Actually, I don't waste my time either with a QT... As I have stated many times, I don't believe in it, and in many ways doing a QT can stress livestock out more than its worth. Basically the less you fiddle with things, IMO the better.

So, I too recommend not using a QT, but as others stated, to each their own. This will be something that you will have to decide on yourself.

I don't think you can say that is bad advice, it is open to interpretation and to what one decides they want to do.

The main tank is a 75
gal. Unfortunately with everything that I have bought to switch my tank over to saltwater, a new tank that will be used intermittently just for quarantine purposes is not in the budget. I have an unused 10 gal with everything I need. As well, I don't have space for another setup. it is only going to be used for a couple of clowns.

This thread is getting off topic though. My original question was regarding whether I needed live rock to maintain the tank through the initial quarantine.

A couple of clowns should be fine in a 10 gallon. Just make sure you do regular water changes, test for ammonia and don't overfeed. If there is food floating around after 5 minutes, you've overfed and cut back next time.

No you don't need live rock as long as you follow the advice given regarding water changes, siphoning out uneaten food & fish waste and a few hiding places for the fish.

In fact you will kill or contaminate your live rock if you medicate your QT tank.

/

I have a few smaller pieces of live rock in my quarantine that is there permanently. If I ever treat anything in quarantine, the rock would be removed and completed dried out for months to ensure whatever disease that was in the system dies on the rock as well. Otherwise the rock is no good for another system ever again.

As VFX pointed out though, it is not a necessity. I just had extra rock rubble that I used.

Or if possible you can boil your live rock thereby killing it. Then stick it back in your system for a few months to make it "live" again.

I'm going to throw in my 2 cents.

I feel that regardless of whether you choose to quarantine or not, it is irresponsible to advise someone else not to quarantine. Especially someone relatively new to the hobby. We should all at least pretend to have the best interest of our livestock at stake and suggesting that you shouldn't quarantine because it's difficult to do properly is really inappropriate.

I understand the debate between the stress of qt vs. a parasite that a healthy fish can fight, but the advice should be limited to ensuring success while in qt -not stating that it isn't necessary because "ich is everywhere". Anyone capable of logic, reason and critical thinking can be certain that ich is not everywhere. Perhaps it's not unreasonable to recommend against qt for a tang in a 10G tank, but let's be clear on what we are saying. If a 100G tank was available, this would not be so unreasonable?

Really, it's a question of cost. If we could afford a large and healthy qt tank, then for sure it's a good idea. Who would say otherwise? By advising against qt, we are really saying "don't worry about it - it costs too much money to set up a viable qt tank".

I think it's a question of experience.

Novice = I don’t quarantine
Intermediate = I don't quarantine but I know I should
Expert = I wouldn't put a fish in my tank without quarantine

In any event – none of the true experts – people who get paid to maintain public aquariums or who write the books we read would ever recommend against quarantine.

There are of course many experienced reef keepers that don't quarantine, but perhaps they aren't as experienced as they think they are when it comes to fish. Ask these same people if the qt their corals?

Personally, I’m at the Intermediate level but I am aspiring to be an “expert”.

- Brad

QT tank setups are so cheap that i cant possibly understand why you wouldnt QT your fish.

I have read a lot about QT'ing and here what my combined research says...


brand new ten gallon bare tank - $25
aquaclear 50 - $40 - you dont need a powerhead - the aquaclear has 200gph flow so that would be 20x tank turn over in ten gallon.
jager 50w heater - $24

thats $90 - whats most of your fish and corals cost? Whats the current value of the livestock/corals in your tank?

still feeling cheap? jump on kijiji and pick up all that stuff for less than half that.

in your sump put some rubble on eggrete spread out 1 layer thick (so it looks like a checkerboard) - this will prevent the buildup on dietrus in between the rocks and causing issues. You could even GLUE the rock to the eggcreate to make it easier!

throw that into you QT tank when needed - remember surface area is more important that rock weight so large rocks wont be as effective as this method.

the filter pads within those hob filters are only good for 1-3 months so dont throw it into your sump until shortly before you get your fish.

Do a water change in your main tank - use 5 gallons of that water along with 5 gallons of new water to fill your QT. That should have enough "goodies" for your water. May wanna run the water through a filter sock if its got some particulate it in it though.

do new saltwater changes every week - 25% - vacuum/clean the bottom of tank for debris.

QT for 21-30 days. Remove rocks from tank when using any type of medication. Put some PVC elbows in there to provide some hiding places but keep it simple and clean.

thats my 2cents :)

Nothing goes in my tanks without quarantining first. Aside from the fact of introducing nasties into the DT, I think it's important to acclimate new fish without the stress of competition. I have a 33g with a 20g sump with skimmer, lighting, PH's etc. I use it for a frag tank and QT. I can observe the new livestock and fatten them up before going to the DT. If I need to medicate I have a spare 20g ready to go. It might be a little more expensive set up than most but I feel it's necessary and it works for me.

When I got into the hobby I choose fish because they were, well, pretty.
If there was only one left at the LFS I bought it on the spot because I was afraid someone else would buy it and often another reefer was there looking at it too. The result was I bought fish that had little chance of survival in anyone's tank because I did not know better and predictably the fish got sick and spread disease or ich to others.
I did not know whether the fish was healthy because I did not know what to look for.

With experience you know whether the fish is healthy and you carefully observe it and put it is a QT if there is any sign of a potential problem.
I follow a garlic regimen religiously too ensure that ich will not develop for the first two weeks of a new addition.

As a newbie I bought 'medicins' that did not work and unintentionally over (more is better) or under medicated (metric)the QT with the result that I lost fish in the QT. Regrettably, I also got slack on QT water changes with the result that I had deaths as a result of probable ammonia poisoning.

Like many things in this hobbby (except the requirements of large tanks for tangs) it is a matter of preference. In either case you have to take care.

Thanks for asking. Oh ya, I use plastic pipe instead of live rock as the meds will kill anyting in the live rock. Almost daily water changes and sucking out excess food and detritus out keeps ammonia in check

Yes you do if you want to avoid ammonia. As you just said, it can raise really fast and without liverock, you would need to change water up to twice a day or more, depending on the size of the aquarium and the bioload. I never change the water in my QT...never have to. I just fill up the water evaporation and check the KH to make sure the PH is stable.

You don,t need liverock but without it you really risk losing your fish from ammonia poisoning. your choice.

Sorry it's not a bad advise, it is a very bad advise.

Once you will get marine velvet and all your fish will be dead...then you will realize just how bad this advise is.

Too many people gamble with the live of their fish just from the laziness and lack of patience or knowledge to do a proper quarantine. When the quarantine stress the fish it is because it is not done properly. I currently have 3 fish in a 21 gallons and they are in great shape, no more ick, and they eat like little pigs. They are absolutely not stressed but I do have enough liverock to avoid ammonia (always 0) and to provide shelter. When I go to the tank to feed, they are almost jumping out of the water to catch the food. I feed them 3 times per day as much as they want to eat and that's a lot..still no ammonia.

2 more weeks to go and they will be ick free. I leave them in hyposalinity for 5 weeks then raise the salinity back to 1.025 over the course of one week.

What med will kill the liverock? copper. When do you need copper? for marine velvet. Marine velvet is rare but kill lightning fast. Most of the time the fish come in with ick and internal parasites. Hyposalinity does NOT kill the liverock biofilter at all. For parasite I use prazipro and it does not kill anything. It is reef safe even for corals. So unless someone has velvet and need to treat with copper, pointless to be without liverock.

but you did say it right..waste your time. Most people skip the quarantine because they find better things to do with their so precious time.

Too each their own. I am by far NOT a novice, and I choose not to quarintine.

This topic always has different points of views, all I am saying is that you shouldn't state something the way you did. you can state your opinion, as myself and others have ours as well. Then the Thread creator can make their own decisions. The way you and others put it, you are 100%. Well others like myself don't think so, and no one can really prove it either way.

It is like you stated 2 more weeks and your fish are ICH free, well some of us believe ICH is always present. Even some LFS believe this, and we are talking some well respected ones. So who is right? I guess who cares, you believe what you want and therefore practice what you wish.

Great day to all!!!

That's probably because you never did anything to get rid of it. Once you treat for it and you quarantine everything properly, then there is such thing as a ich free tank.

It,s not just a matter of doing a quarantine, but treating with hyposalinity each fish that come into the main tank. That's what I do and I have no ich.

You are probably right in your situation because your system is not ich free and never will be unless you do what's needed for it. I am also right because I am doing what is needed and my system is ich free.

Stating LFS as a reference is no reference though. I don't have to beleive what I want, I simply see the result...no ich. None, niet. Never any outbreak, nothing.

Daniella

I am very interested in your success with hypo salinity. As with everything there is some debate about it's effectiveness. I know that some of the people who hang around at WetWebMedia are less than convinced that it works. However, I know there are many people like yourself who have found it to be an effective cure for Ich.

Is there any chance you could start a new thread and talk a little bit about your process? - If you do, please let me know just in case I miss it.

Put a disclamer at the top of your post stating that the thread is for discussion around treating Ich, not debating whether "Ich is everywhere". I think you and I are equally frustrated when we here this myth.

- Brad

Well Daniella3d, good for you... In my case I have only ever lost one fish to ICH, a Powder Blue, and that was almost 3 years ago, when my tank was new. So in saying that, I am quit successful with my fish, without quarantining or hypo. So explain why that is, I don't quarantine anything. As you state it, I should be having lots of problems then.... HMMMMMM..... As you stated also holds true for me "no ich. None, niet. Never any outbreak, nothing"

I guess what I am saying is what you say isn't the Godly truth and if you don't do it your way, its wrong.... Cuz that isn't the case. Many ways for many people I guess.

To the thread creator and others seeking knowledge, just take all advice in stride... Non of us can claim to be experts, so please just use your common sense. If you choose to QT, go for it, if not then that is fine also.

That's pretty much the stance I am taking on the issue. I personally I'll quarantine all fish before they go into the main tank. It might be a different story if I didn't have another tank to use. I won't go buy an all new setup just to quarantine in a 29 gal instead of a 10. This is just the decision I've made based on the wealth of information that I've read.

Daniella, do you treat all new fish hen you qt before you introduce them to the display tank, or do you use it only as needed?

I wouldn't concern yourself over this thread any more, there's always someone on every forum who is critical about every idea that isn't their own. There are many ways to run a very successful tank and hopefully most people will be open-minded enough to look at all suggestions and decide for themselves what route they wish to go. If there was only one fool proof way of doing things then we could all buy the manual and have no need for this forum.

If you have decided to use a quarantine tank then you should do so with every purchase otherwise there is no benefit to it. Not all pathogins are visible on the fish or cause immediate odd behavior.

Sorry for the misconception. I plan on quarantining all new additions, I was wondering whether to treat all new additions with hyposalinity while in qt, or only if needed.

Very well put, thank you for the comments.

If you want to make sure that you will not introduce ick, then yes you must treat with hyposalinity each new addition. It must be done with a good refractometer though, not a hydrometer as they are not precise enough. It's sad, it's long but with some liverock there is no need to do water change much.

I did an exception with my niger trigger wich I treated with Seachem Paraguard for 3 weeks because of a popeye so for him I did not use hypo treatment because the paraguard already kill the ick and some other parasites. Paraguard did not kill my liverock biofilter. It's never a good idea to combine hyposalinity with other medication.

Usualy hyposalinity does not stress the fish. The main problem come when you have some sensitive fish that must eat live food, like a mandarin because hypo kill all pods and invertebrates. Then maybe a simple observation for these would be ok. Mandarins are not very susceptible to ick anyway as they produce a very thick mucus.

You should use common sense too. Some fish are much less susceptible to ick. I would definitly treat all tang and all fish that are known to be susceptible to ich. The most important thing is a proper observation period of 4 weeks minimum to make sure you don't bring velvet in your tank. Marine velvet is a deadly thing.

I am not saying you will have problems, but you may endup losing all of your fish. Just look in this forum and see some threads about people losing like 25 fish or so. Sad isn't?

Some of these people were also for a long time, mush longer then you, in this hobby and never quarantined, never had a problem and then one day, bam.


If what I said is not the goldy truth, then saying that all aquariums have ich is even farther from that goldy truth.

what I am saying here is that stories like these don't have to be and could have been avoided if only the person would have done a proper quarantine:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...ghlight=velvet


http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...ghlight=velvet


some of the worst:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...ghlight=velvet

Edit: list of loses as of 10:00am July 1/09: (26 Dead) (8 Alive)

Wow , Copperband cop and QT expert. She is a busy girl.

wow, and you were the one telling me to move on? looks like you're on a personal vendette for some reason. get over it.

Wow, this topic really seems to bring out the worst :(

I just find it annoying that anyone who disagrees with your practices or opinion is treated like a fish abuser or being less intelligent than you. As already stated on this thread " If there was one way of doing things in this hobby.........."
Your posts are so confrontational when your opinion is not taken as fishkeeping gospel.
And now I am over it. tout fini

Well that's your perception. I have not said anything like this and if you want to think that way than it's your own decision. You can understand what ever you want but you can't say that I have said something that I have NOT say or meat. YOu seem to have no clue what I am saying or meaning.

I don't even know where you took the part of "less intelligent than you" thing...pretty wierd. I just tought that some advise given here about not doing a quarantine was a bad advise and I still thing it is a bad advise and will always thing it is a bad advise because it is a bad advise. just period here and end of story.

What if the person listen to this advise and get marine velvet and lose all the fish? yeah right. there might be more than one way to do things in this hobby but recommanding not to do quarantine is not the right way to do it.

Heck, have you even read the threads I posted here? you don't have to go very far in this forum to see it's not a good way to do it.