Help: New Butterfly with Ich. FML.
 

So yesterday I picked up a longnose butterfly from another member. Brought him home, got him set up with a nice long acclimation and watched him for several hours. He was happy, perky, eating like crazy and not showing any signs of distress. Best of all, he was a perfect specimen with no signs of anything. Seeing as how I don't necessarily have the space for a quarantine, observation is really my only option.

I made sure the lights were off when I added him to the tank and there isn't anyone there to harass him. My blenny checked him out for a bit then left him alone. The butterfly seemed happy enough, zipping around my tank demolishing every tube worm it could find, ate some more mysis... all was well! It seemed fairly awake at midnight last night... I assume just having trouble the first night in a new tank.

Well, I woke up this morning and BAM!, f***ing ich on the new butterfly. F*** me! I'd call it a moderate infection.

So, I've never had to deal with ich before as I keep my water clean, don't stress my fish, avoid the ich-magnets and well.... I've been lucky. This guy is in a full reef so I can't treat the tank. I've been reading about all the different options and don't necessarily see a solution that is going to work for me, aside from building a quarantine (really, really not the preferred option right now).

What should I do here? Advice please.

Do nothing. Feed it well, let it settle in. See what happens. Maybe add fresh garlic to some mysis. Thaw mysis, squish really well in paper towel to get out moisture, then smother with freshly crushed garlic. It's what I do, always works for me and I've never lost a fish to ich...

+1 what Aquattro siad, a cleaner wrasse or shrimp would be a good investment as well. My cleaner wrasse that I got for all places, Pieces in Calgary is a workhorse. Keep ALL my fish nice and clean even my clowns and a checkerboard wrasse.

That sucks dude, hopefully it's just the stress of the tank move. Hopefully it will recover well!

Ya, I've got a pair of cleaner shrimp. Hopefully they'll take good care of it.

Brad do you let the crushed garlic go into the tank with the mysis or do you do anything to separate it before adding to the tank?

My guess here is the stress of the new tank is what brought it on, as long as the fish remains eating and nobody is picking on him it should go away. Some fish are more prone to ich than others. My lavender tang seems to have about a half dozen spots that come and go and it's been well over a year. I put some cleaner shrimp in and he's all too happy to let them work their magic on him so time will tell if that makes a difference down the road but for the most part managing ich is all about managing good water quality, peaceful tankmates and good food quality so that the fish's own immune response and slime coat become enough to repel the ich on the next go-round of the ich cycle. It's been a real mind-blow for me in this last year as previously in 12 years or whatever it's been now for me of running SW fish tanks I've been lucky in that ich went away on new arrivals within a week and now I'm adjusting myself to thinking that chronic ich seems less of a panic button item than other ailments. :neutral:

I don't worry about chunks, in or out. Essentially I want the dry mysis to soak up as much oil as possible. Then the whole mix goes in. It's easier with tangs, since the nori acts like a sponge, I just crush the garlic on a sheet and wipe it around, then given the nori a shake to get rid of any bigger chunks.
My hippo woke up one morning with a masive outbreak just after getting her, and this is the approach I took. Today I have a very happy healthy hippo tang.

I don't think cleaner shrimps or cleaner wrasses can do anything to ich. They mainly pick up dead skin or left over food in the mouth of a fish.
Garlic may or may not help.
Sometime people reported that they added this and that and the ich went away. Well, ich just doesn't simply go away. Most likely they are still attaching to some fish but just don't cause an outbreak yet.
If you don't want to set up a hospital tank, then avoiding any stress on the fish is the best option. Feed it well, no aggressive fish. Stable parameters. Hopefully the fish can fight off the outbreak.

Frankly, I agree with you but I'm willing to try anything. The ich parasite is in my reef, simple as that. The only way I'm getting it out of there is by treating the whole tank or running fishless for quite a while, neither of which are really an option for me. So, just like that present BlazingArrow got from that "Lady of the night" in Tijauana, all I can do is find ways of minimizing the flair ups and helpin the fish fight it off. If only there was a Valtrax for marine ich...

I beg to differ with you there, my cleaner wrasse took care a a case of ick on my Regal in one day. And garlic is a big help to keep all fish healthy.

yes maybe but you still have ich in your tank and if the situation get bad and the fish stressed, they will get ick again. Ick does not get away on its own. It's still on your fish gills and only waiting for the right moment to pop out.

Follow the advice of Grizz, Aquatrro and Delphius.
The idea is to get as much garlic into the Butterfly as possible and the other fish. Feed very often and only garlic soaked food.
A product called Garlic Extreme works best and you can avoid the fuss and smell of fresh garlic if you choose.

Well..the life cycle of marine ich is very well studied and understood. There are 3 stages to it, the first stage it bores under the skin or gills of a fish. The second stage it falls off the fish and turns into a cyst. The third stage it breaks out of the cyst and becomes a free swiming parasite. If it can't find a host in the 3rd stage within a few days, it dies.
In the first 2 stages, no current medicine can kill it because it is well protected. That's why I believe cleaner shrimps or clean wrasses can't do a damn thing about it either when ich is in those stages. They can't do anything about free swimming ich either.
If sign of ich goes away without using any medicine, kudos to you for keeping the fish stress free and avoiding another outbreak.

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll give it all a try. George, you are correct about the life cycle of ich. Other than treating the entire tank the only I can do is just keep the fish healthy to fight it and prevent it from getting a foot hold. If the cleaners can remove the parasite before it burrows and the garlic can help prevent it from sticking around it may be possible to starve it out.

The tank is pretty low stress as only chilled out fish are allowed. There is only a mandarin (chill), goby (chill) and a blenny (a little yellow Buddha reincarnate). Whether or not the fish likes his new digs remains to be seen.

Yes I am very aware of all this info, all I was saying is what works well for me. I have only had one major outbreak of ice in the 8'er in the year it has been running. I have made many changes inside the tank and added new fish often without issues. All my food I feed be it pellet or Mysis is garlic enriched and my cleaner wrasse keeps all the tangs clean. That's all.

Unfortunately I feel very strongly about cleaner wrasses in captivity, and I say "unfortunately" because it's really too bad I love that fish! If you've ever seen Hawaiian cleaner wrasses they will take your breath away. But not only do cleaner wrasses fare poorly in captivity, it's a double edged sword because it means a cleaner station was "taken offline" so to speak in the wild and this probably does more harm than we can imagine. In the case of cleaner shrimp this is probably true to a lesser extent but it's also mitigated by the fact that cleaner shrimp have millions of babies every couple of weeks so for every adult removed from the wild it means one more of the millions that might not have survived now gets a chance to take their place instead. Cleaner wrasses on the other hand spawn less frequently and the cleaner stations will only have 2 or 3 of these fish and once they're gone they're gone. It sucks, but if we have any love or respect of the reef at all we have to be disciplined and leave cleaner wrasses in the wild, some species we have to draw the line on and say "not in my tank" even if it means we lose out on value inside our own captive reef.

As for cleaners vs ich, I would venture that there is still some value even if they do nothing to the ich life cycle itself. When I see a fish with ich it very often tries to scratch against different surfaces and this risks injury or lessens the slime coat which in turn opens the door for escalation. Whereas cleaner shrimp do their thing and it must feel good since a fish who recognizes what a cleaner does will seek it out and I suspect it's a little more surgical than random rock scraping. Sort of like how a hot bath doesn't cure a cold or the sniffles but you feel better anyhow after one and any little bit helps.

Just my thoughts based on maybe nothing in particular, thanks for listening :)

cant argue with this:):)

I do agree with all that Tony, my main reason for my cleaner wrasse is that I seen it at Pieces when I was there getting bones for my Huskies. They had it in there one coral tank and was looking some what skinny. So I decided to bring it home and see if I could lengthen it's life, also refused to pay full price of it just for that fact. Now he is looking so good, very active, swims around with my checker board wrasse, eats pellets & flake and have even seen him pick at some algea and even Mysis too.

agreed cleaner wrasses up and die even when they are eating healthy and doing well for years, i lost mine after i had him for over a year.....died during water change:( looked completely healthy and was eating like a champ.cleaner shrimp are a better choice for sure:):)and i agree if they werent doing anything alot of fish would just eat them when they came close but its not the case ive seen them in the mouths or morays and ive seen fish looking for the cleaners:):)

I would have some cleaner shrimp to but something, have no idea what, has a taste for all the shrimp I have put in my tank even a huge coral banded shrimp.

I remember you saying that. Wonder who it could be.. do you have any hermits, are they goners too?

Have several hermit crabs, have not lost any of them.

So a bit of update. If fed the butterfly and my other fish mysis and pellets soaked in garlic (with some garlic chucks) last night and they all gobbled it up. I woke up this morning and the butterfly was significantly better. He only had a couple of remaining white spots on his fins; far better than yesterdays tip to tail ordeal. Was it the fish fighting it, the garlic, the cleaner shrimp? We'll see how quickly he gets over it and whether is comes back.

Thanks for the advice guys!

Good to hear, by tomorrow there should be no sign of it at all. Keep feeding with garlic your fish will love it.

Can you give us an update now? How is the butterfly? I ask because I have a powder blue that's infested (everyone else in the tank is utterly healthy) and have just put some nori and pellets into bowls to soak in garlic overnight...

He's happy as a clam... Errr, happy as a fish?.... The ich still comes and goes though. It seems that after a week of heavy feeding ( to reduce stress) it came back pretty bad. Big water change and it was gone. The ich flair up could have been due to the polluted water from overfeeding or it could have just been coincidal with the natural cycle of the parasite. Dunno. Either way, a water change seemed to help.

I also stopped feeding with garlic for a bit. BAM! Ich! I've stepped up feedin with garlic again and it seems to help. I've found that Spike won't take the food of there are garlic chunks... He just nibbles and then spits the food out. I've started slicing the garlic and adding it to boiled RO/DI and letting it cool... Basically making my own garlic extract. I'll remove the garlic with a strainer and then add the food to the extract and let it soak for several hours. I then drain the garlic water and freeze the food. He goes bananas for this stuff and it seems to do the trick.

That sounds like a lot of work. I eventually switched to Garlic Extreme. I think it was like only $8 or something like that. Man that stuff is concentrated and powerful.

The tang I'm having the problem with only eats nori-- so I have some sheets soaking in chopped garlic with some tank water in a bowl, and will start feeding that tomorrow...
fridge reeks of garlic now...

I just moved everyone to a bigger tank and most fish are showing sings of ich from stress of moving.
I started Marc Weiss Immuno-Vital and garlic socked food. I find from previous times both help, but it will be a long battle, over next two months it will come and go. I do have a neon goby who cleans fish but the problem is he is looking the worst out of all of them, as no one cleans him.

Sigh... I don't get this fish man. I love this guy, he has great personality and he's a total blast to hang out with. He even "plays" with me! Definitely one of the best fish I've had. Except...

His ich just keep getting worse (or at least no better). The ich goes away, comes back, goes away, comes back... Today it's back with a vengence.

He seems to be settling in a little better (at least when I'm around) when the ich is gone. He swims around, poke at the rocks and eats like a pig. When it's back he's pretty restless and twitchy. If I sneak into the room so he doesn't see me (when he's battling ich) I can see him swimming up and down the glass. I take this as a sign of stress. So, I can't figure out if he's stressed because of the ich, or if he's battling ich because he's stressed because he doesn't like his tank...?

There's no one around to bother him (just a goby, mandarin and blenny, all of whom are peaceful... and a couple cleaner shrimp). Any ideas on this guy? Just an ich magnet or something else?

sadly, my powder blue succumbed... your butterfly may also. I have come to the conclusion that the experts are right: there is no magic bullet for marine ich other than removing all the fish from the display tank, leaving it fishless for at least two months (or more), and treating all the fish in a QT tank during that time with copper meds.
i just hope i do not see a single speck of ich on any of the other fish! so far, the powder blue was the onyl fish in the tank to show ANY sign!

Something is stressing it out big time but it does not sound like it could be another fish. How are your water parameters & temp? Do your lights come on all at once, hard start? Or do they gradually come on? Just thinking outside the box as it seems like something is some what shocking him.

Would stray voltage case him to stress?

I don't think he will. He been battling it for at least 4 weeks now and is still fat, health and full of energy. As long as he keeps eating I think he'll be fine. I'm just feeling bad because he looks like he's gonna go crazy with the itching.

I keep the water params spot on because of my SPS, so I doubt that's the issue. I have been overfeeding the butterfly to help him through this, which does pollute the water more, so I've been doing a 25% water change weekly.

SG: 1.026
Amm: 0 ppm
pH: ~8.4
Nit/Phos: 0 ppm
Alk: 9 dKH
Calc: 420 ppm

Temp: 79 F

I have a grounding probe for stray voltages.

My only thought was the change in tank size. He came from another reefer that had a 125G system with lots of fish. Maybe the downsize in digs and few friends might be bothering him?

This is definitely a curious situation, I am out of ideas.

You and me both, big guy. There are times when it seems totally relaxed (ie. when he's playing with me or when he's not covered with ich) or he seems really twitchy and irritated and swims up and down the glass (when he's covered with ich). I have no idea...

Like I said, my only guess is then change in tank size...

Have you tried to add a cleaner wrasse? I added on a few months back and just recently got a Scribbled Rabbit that had a little ick. Once he was into my tank te ick got worse but within a day mt cleaner had it all cleaned up.

thats not completely true first of all if you would have practised safe buyng you wouldnt be in this boat by that i mean observing the fish before buying for disease and watching it easily take food if that passes then observe some more. fish should be added in certain orders to eleiminate stress of new homes and bullys..... some fish make the transition easily while some do not....some need the food a mature system provides while some not so much....powder blues are ich magnets and most will say stay away untill you belive you can keep one healthy or the system is large enough for it to feel "safe". with this fish i would start with hyposalinity given their track record.......but as youve already added it to your system your only answer now is a fallow system and to put the remaining fish in hyposalinity....8 weeks to be safe.......safe buying is a great start, never impulse buy,never rescue,never let a fish with a bad rap hit your tank untill your well read up on it.


didnt mean to come off harsh but copper imo is a very last effort as it kills sometimes as easy and as fast as ich can there are other meds that are effective besides copper....some even reef safe:).


cheers!!!:):)

I don't actually need lectures, but thanks for the thought. the word succumbed in this context means died. And yes, I know all the stuff you've listed--I've been keeping salt tanks since before people in North America even knew you could keep live corals!(and to this day i feel FOWLR tanks miss out on a lot!)-- and even taking all the precautions possible, you can still get a bout of ich in your tank.
All it really takes is introduction of a new coral that may have a few stray trodonts on the rock it's attached to.
If you read my post, it clearly says the tang was the only fish to show any sign of ich. In two months of recurring bouts of ich, it was the only fish to show ich-- the others, not a single spot. so the tank, minus the now dead tang, appears as healthy as ever.
Needless to say, I will be watching the other fish as closely as I have been for some time.
I disagree with you regarding copper. It has to be VERY carefully administered, yes. Nothing, absolutely, nothing, that you use in the way of equipment with a QT tank in which you use copper can be permitted to come in contact with your display tank.
But it remains the gold standard for guaranteed ich cure. I would love to know the brand names of the "other meds" you mention that are reef safe and that work. If you mean Kick Ich-- HAH! might as well shred twenty dollar bills into your tank for all the good THAT stuff does (I used it once about two years ago. Useless.)
a PS re cleaner wrasses: it is now commonly accpeted among the experts that cleaner wrasses do NOT clean up ich. They clean up the damaged and dead surface skin that's been damaged by the ich. They do not actually clean off the ich spots.

so let me get this straight your saying:



i disagree with you regarding copper. It has to be VERY carefully administered, yes. Nothing, absolutely, nothing, that you use in the way of equipment with a QT tank in which you use copper can be permitted to come in contact with your display tank.



hummm so it isnt harmfull your saying but yet it has to be "very" carefully administered????? wow cause thats not strange....


all corals should also be dipped and you should never use the water your coras come in....so there are ways to ensure it doesnt hit your tank.

i have used paraguard with success with garlic soaked foods , never harmed my reef or inverts but it can be lethal to invertabrates, its def not as strong as copper but like stated it has worked for me for a hippo i was treating for a friend.




i wasnt trying to lecture but you obviously are not looking at the big picture and are stating publically that copper is the only cure when you obviously havent done squat all research...if you had you would know alot of reefers try to stay away from copper... so heres the big picture you bought a fish who is known to have ich ...they are ich magnets.... you didnt quarantine and now have the ich in your system and it is in your system i guarantee it and are now trying to say copper is the only cure???...



if you noticed the ich on your tang for 2 mths and never did anything then you only have yourself to blame a last minute effort dont help much to fish not strong enough to go through the treatment.....that 2 mths was your cure and you didnt take it...soooo ya!!








I don't actually need lectures, but thanks for the thought. the word succumbed in this context means died. And yes, I know all the stuff you've listed--I've been keeping salt tanks since before people in North America even knew you could keep live corals.




so if you know all the stuff listed then why not do hyposalinity or have a hospital tank set up , why wait two months before treating your fish, why state that the tang is the only fish to have ich when you know its in your tank and other fish can get it....



if you want ich to stay away there are ways to not have it like i said buy only fish you have watched for health, treat all fish for parasites and even quarantine fish for hyposalinity, make sure your new fish readily eats food and is stress free from bullys and other variables like lights, yourself,sounds,electricity....etc etc etc...

dont overstock or get fish to big for your tank and try to stay away from fish who are known to carry ich like alot of tangs.





your making out like copper is a guaranteed cure and that since youve "been keeping salt tanks since before people in North America even knew you could keep live corals!" that your exempt from new learnings....well i got bad news for ya there.....your always gonna learn or your always gonna fail:):)

cheers and good luck with the new tang;)....

Now you are just being a mannerless lout-- one who apparently can't read.
I said copper "remains the gold standard" for curing ich. I did NOT say, or even suggest or hint, that copper is the only cure!
I said Kick Ich did nothing in my tank a few years ago.
I did NOT say copper was not harmful: i said nothing about its relative harmfulness or harmlessness. I said copper must be very, very carefully administered. That in itself should be sufficient indication for anyone with half a brain that I was pretty clearly inferring (you know the meaning of the word infer?) that copper is inherently dangerous.
You also suggest I did nothing for two months. Where, precisely, do you get that idea???
Stating that I have been keeping salt tanks for that long by no means suggests I have not continued to learn during the entire time I have kept tanks. That you would suggest that is both ignorant and insulting.
And guess what: I did ALL the things you list so pompously as necessary to keep a healthy tank before introducing that tang. You seem to be under the impression I just ran out, impulsively bought it and threw it in my reef along with gallons of water from various other infested tanks, and maybe a bunch of coral I didn't bother acclimating properly.
From exactly what basis do you draw that conclusion?
You seem to be under the impression you know everything there is to know about ich and reef tanks.
There are plenty of professionals and hobbyist reef experts out there who don't consider hyposalinity a first line of defense against ich. And I have done plenty of research constantly through the years, as more is learned about reefing, new products are developed, and we begin to understand more about what affects our reefs and how and why--, not "squat all."
You, sir, are an ignorant, rude jerk. Your advice will be taken in that context.