Tang Police or Tang Nazis?
 

Interesting article in this month's Coral Magazine: It seems the "Tang Police" may have to hand in their handcuffs. Apparently, studies have been done to measure stress levels of fish kept in aquariums of different sizes. After acclimation, there was no difference is stress level between fishes in larger or smaller tanks. In fact, there was no difference in levels between captive fish and wild fish. The author of the article goes on to say that the Regal Tang, which many people consider to be one of the Tangs that require larger spaces are fine in a tank of 150 gallons, as long as a swimming area of 65" by 24" is available. The author also says Wrasses may require more swimming room than Tangs. Why are there no "Wrasse Police"?

Haha yeah I think sometimes people need to just relax and remember these are just fish not actual people. And if you care that much about fish you should not eat them or keep aquariums.

Well I've got one of those criteria handled. The other ain't gonna happen!

I'm gonna go watch my Kole zoom around his 3 foot 97g now brb.

Leave it to you all to start poking fun... This thread will be a fun one to watch and see what happens.

I think I want my JBJ28 back and I can put Dori in it. She is about 7 inches long now. She would be fine, she can turn around.

Happy New Year everyone!!!

It's a new year, might as well stir the pot a little! :mrgreen:

I don't pretend to be an animal behaviouralist. In fact, I don't know if that's even a real word. :redface: I just found the article interesting. Right or wrong? I don't know, but I'm sure there will be some interesting responses.

Part of our jobs as the owner of these small eco systems is to best replicate the inhabitants natural environment. Isn't it?

Do you buy a German sheppard and stuff it into a small crate? I mean, it can turn around in there. There is room for it to eat and such. So, that is okay then right? Dog seems happy when I stick my fingers in the front grate...... This will get me in jail if I put a picture of it on a dog forum, and talk about it. All the while ignoring all advice being given to me by the members of that community.

Can you keep a tang in a 90.. Sure. Can someone new to the hobby do the same.. Maybe. The person that has more experience with water chemistry will likely have a healthier tang in a year.

Can you put a 5" yellow tang in a biocube? Sure you can. You can even go on the forums, and tell everyone that no matter how many reasons they provide you with, your not going to do anything differently. And your not going to have to worry about police... cause well, its a fish... No fur...

I have yet to read that article. But even without doing so, can still comment on my opinions (and yes, there are times when I dust off the tang police badge) Fish need an appropriate amount of room. Tangs do not stay in one area in the wild. (there was a video posted here the other day with Atlantic blue's they came, and left) We keep them in a glass box. The least we can do is give them the room they need to reach speeds capable of splashing the water out of the tank.

Can you keep a tang in a 90.. Sure. Can someone new to the hobby do the same.. Maybe. The person that has more experience with water chemistry will likely have a healthier tang in a year.

As with all opinions in this hobby (wanna talk DSB's?) They come backed with personal experience.

Gets off the soap box, and puts the badge back into the jacket pocket.

No tank you can build will ever come close to replicating a fishes natural habitat or range...lol

You have your own soapbox and it seems to be of the hypocritical kind...lol

If you take a fish out of the ocean and put it into your tank, you are NO better than someone who throws a yellow tang in a 50 gallon...

If I kidnapyou and take you away from your home, family and habitat, do you care if I stick you in an apartment or house?

This hobby just seems to attract those with an odd sense of being righteous...maybe to deal with the guilt of raping the oceans...the rape in which we ALL (unless your tank is exclusively captive raised and eco live rock) take part in...

Make yourself feel better about things if you must, just dont expect those of us whove cashed in our reality cheques to care.

It's like you took the words right out of my mouth!

Wow. Okay then....

I was simply pointing out that while we have taken the fish from the ocean our job was to take care of it as best we can.

Sorry if that got lost in the translation. Was just making a comparison using a dog. Lots of popular TV shows regarding animal cruelty these days. But not for animals with fins.....

As for eco rock? Really? Dig a big hole toss all kinds of sediments into the water ways, destroying local lakes, and rivers eco systems. Pollutants in the air from the equipment digging it up etc. So that we feel better? I will stick with my live rock. I am sure that it isn't collected per the "loose rock" rules that most regions have, but less impact than digging holes, refining the rocks to turn it back into rock.

As for being no better than the next, your wrong there. I do frequent the forums. I make educated purchases. I make sure that I am not buying something unreasonable for my aquarium. I don't just trust some kid at a store that it is "okay" I stick with sponsors that know what the hell their doing. And even then, I still will wait on a purchase till I have looked it up myself.

Ok SO my 8 footer that will house a
Orange Shoulder tang
Kole Tang
Tommi Tang
Sailfin Tang
5 Yellow tangs
Chevron tang

will be good not to mention the other 17 fish that i will have in there.


mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm good to know I thought that it was to much.

this should be a pole tang police or tang nazi:):)

None of this makes you any less of a detriment to the state of the oceans.
You can say I am better than the rest because I do my research and cross my t's and dot my i's but it doesnt change a thing anywhere but in your own eyes.
You are still taking these animals out of their home and putting them into yours for YOUR OWN PERSONAL BENEFIT.

And as far as the eco rock goes, I thought I was pretty clear in speaking only in the context of being guilty of the rape of our oceans....lol
not of other forms of environmental destruction.
Speculation is fun and it can sure help you make a point but really, you would need a pretty in depth study to truly determine which was more harmfull overall to the general environment.

Also....lol
as a side note, both my German Short Haired Pointer and my Chihuahua are crate trained and are healthier, happier animals for it and nobody is going to send me to jail for that.

GobyTron, I think you are coming across a little harsh... You probably don't mean it though, its the common problem with forums. Believe me, I have had my fair share of my comments being taken the wrong way.

I think we all can say that non of us have the right, but we still do... So lets just try the best we can for our little inhabitants. If we all really cared enough, then we wouldn't be taking anything from the oceans, so I guess we are all selfish/greedy.

Just my 2cents.

Harsh?

just pointing out the obvious in my mind.

Apologies to those who may feel offended by my words here but maybe it's because they make sense and that doesnt feel too good.

In my mind, it's reality thats harsh and not me.

Admittably, there is no one I would rather play devils advocate to than tank nazis.

How do you measure the stress level of a fish, or better yet how do you measure the stress level of a fish with out stressing it out?

Link me plz.

+1

How about a taking a fish from the ocean and put it on your dinner plate?
You eat it, you stress him once.
You keep it in your tank, for sure you stress him more than once.

http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb3...ank-376071.jpg

LOL..
Nice 1.

In the article a study was cited in passing of measured cortisol levels being the same in acclimated stock as wild stock.

I love threads about an article where nobody reads the article. Read the article - I think it's pretty informative and lays a lot of issues out in a reasonable manner.

I'mall for appropriately sizing a tank to a fish - obviously a 7" fish should not go in a 12" cube. But a 6" fish in a 3' tank? Sure, it CAN swim really far and fast, but does it have to?

I gotta agree with you. It's a conflict of interest, in my mind, to defend a fish's rights and freedoms when you in fact own a fish. Is a 180 better than a 90 for a tang? Probably, but marginally at best. Unless you own a tank about a kilometer long, you're not coming close to replicating it's environment. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that unless your gallonage has 4 digits, the tang might as well be in a biocube.
I've heard of tangs settling down once leaving a 4' tank for a 6'. I see no difference in mine after this move. They cannot get anywhere near cruising speed, and you can tell they'd rather be home in the ocean.

So while I may admire the intent to do well, believing we are is simply fiction. Reality is, we are a menace to the reefs!

I think that the 7" fish in a 12" was a joke or mistaken somewhere. these always go that way.

:pop2:

Actually, while this statement may sound ridiculous on the surface, I think you're absolutely right and is more or less what the article has found.

None of our tanks are suitable in my opinion. Most hobbyists feel better the more space they have. That much we know. We've grown comfortable with the six foot rule which is mostly for our peace of mind not theirs. Six is better than three but it's still a drop in the Big Bucket.

Yes it does. People are taking care of animals better through research. They are breeding animals that 10 years ago we couldn't (wanna get a tank raised mandarin, that will eat prepared food, you can. Couldn't a couple years ago)

Sure I am, but in my tank, I have setup the tank to keep my fish healthy. I would bet your tanks are setup in the best interests of the inhabitants your looking to put in there.

And I was pointing out that sometimes this "rape" of the ocean is a better solution than the Eco friendly ways. I did a quick look, and all the eco rock sellers I could find state; We dig this rock from X year old reefs. (pollutants, land erosion etc) Then power wash the rock (where is all that silt running too?) to sell it as 100% clean rock.
Again, ya missed what I was saying. If you leave those dogs in their crate 24/7 you can bet your butt you can be in trouble for it. But I am guessing they are in there while you work, maybe at night too. Nothing wrong with that. We don't have the option of taking the fish for a walk, or letting it out in the back yard. So, we try to give it the best we can.



If not for the hobby in the first place, some of the learning that has happened in the past few years would not exist. Talk to any of the industry (hobby?) leaders at any of the shows. They will all talk about how the hobby has helped with the industry, and renewal projects on the reefs.

Now, please, if you have something to debate, or add to a conversation, do so. Don't sit here and nit pick one persons thoughts and opinions. That sort of thinking is not healthy.

couldnt agree more theres too much about whats right and whats wrong, we all use the judgement that suits us best if someone elses beliefs or practises are different then our own then thats their god given right but why should we argue over things that will never have a solid answer......whos right and whos wrong is always gonna be up for debate so i say choose your side based on your own feelings.

i got into sw for the hobby of it, so as a hobbyst and not a conservationalist i dont quabble over right and wrong i just wait for opportunities to come my way so while you all are arguing ill stand neutral...... this hobby to me is an experiment im not trying to save the world im trying to save my sanity and keep myself busy if i save the reef in the process then great if i am somehow to blame for destroying it then....sorry in advance:):)


i think the reason we all dont have big fish in super small tanks isnt because we feel morally at fault if that was the case id offer money to every bum i seen we dont do it because they dont fit, if i had a 3' tank and a 9" fish then he takes up the whole tank and would leave little room for viewing which is the whole idea of a aquarium.

I'll reiterate again, if you keep fish in a tank, you're a hazard to the oceans :) Equating dogs and crates isn't entirely accurate. Tank/fish size is like comparing taking a wild wolf and keeping in the extra large size crate instead of the undersized medium crate. The furrari Xtra large is a wonderful crate, but the wolf isn't any better off than if it was in the undersized crate. The wolf belongs in the forest. The fish belong in the ocean.
We don't need to "research" reefs in aquariums. How many millions of fish have died, tons of rocks mined, corals ripped from the wild, all in the name of this research??
Sure, we all have our excuses for why we keep them anyway, but it's still bad for everything but us.

As I stated prior, and +1 to you. We are ALL Selfish, but again this is human.

We can go on this topic forever, but overall the human race are the pilligers of the planet, we take, and don't replace. We take for pleasure, not just for survival... Name another creature that is like this, NONE!!!

I agree with Gobytrons and others comments also... I guess it is just a matter how we present/represent ourselves. This the reason I commented prior to your comments.

Really do we have a right to scrutinize anyone for having too small a tank, when in reality none of us should have one?

LOL...
It's like we're having 2 different conversations...

I had read it yesterday and that come right on time. I happen to have a small hippo, 2" 1/2 in a 75 gallons tank and was told the fish "would not be happy". He eats like a pig but does not roam the aquarium much and prefer to stay on the top part within my sps. I was again told it is because the fish is in a too small space and that was a sign of stress but after reading the article I have learned the truth...the young hippo tang does not roam much and prefer to stay within the same spot, so my fish has a normal behavior as it would in the wild. He can stay in that tank for a year at least before he outgrown it, then he would go into a larger tank but there is no rush.

It is true that taking a fish from the ocean with a living space of 20,000 gallon per fish and putting it either in a 90 galons tank or a 150 gallons tank is not going to make a big difference.

they also explain that the naso tang and one other are those that really need swimming space so there is a lot of myth and propaganda done by the unfamous tang police it seems.

For the stress level, I always thought that fish were more stressed in the wild because they constantly have to watch for predator and death is in every corners. In aquarium usualy the fish are well fed and safe. How stressfull can that be? at least if there is no aggression in the tank that is.

I don't think the fish know that there aren't any sharks behind the rock, so the normal stress of trying to avoid being eaten is still there.

Just curious but are you doing a strict quarantine each time you introduce something? Because that's definitly more important to keep fish healthy than 50 gallons difference in a tank.

I know a lot of people who don't give a darn about ich and let the fish burst in ich here and there and say "it's nothing, it will go away on its own" and those same people are almost dropping dead if they see a 3" baby tang in a 90 gallons tank. I bet the tang in the 90 gallons tank that does not have harrassing parasite and ich burst is a LOT more happy and healthy than the one in the 180 gallons full of ich harrassing it each day (weather you see white spots or not).

I have seen blue hippo tang with horrible deformation due to HLLE and that was in a big 150 gallons tank. Obviously the fish was underfed or not fed the proper food.

A lot of people will not care much for this but will be heal over head for an aquarium size.

nah...the fish are more intelligent than you think and they do learn to feel comfortable in an aquarium. My fish got the routine right and they pretty much know the feeding hours and come right at the spot to get fed. They learn to trust us, as well as they learn to trust their environment with time. That is if there is no aggressive fish in there that harras another fish to death, then the fish will be relaxed and learn that they can't be harmed there.

At leat that is from my own observation of my fish. At the begining they are scared and skittish but with a few weeks they get really relaxed. I think with time they get the idea and the stress of being eated goes away.

I think the same way, when you put a new fish into the tank, they hide and dont show there face much, I put in a Royal Gramma and didnt see him for a week, but he slowly started to show his face more and more and now hes fine with me sticking my arms in tank to move corals or whatever needs to be done...

They get used to the captivity now if that lowers the stress of the fish who knows but I think its still there primal instinct to watch there back..

:pop2:
I just knew this article would bring out some some good stuff. :boxing:

is there an online copy of this article? sounds like a good read.

I'm not sure, but I'll look into it.

I don't know about that, my Border Collies are way smarter than my fish and they're still convinced that there are grizzlies in the backyard :)

Here you go. I think this works.

http://p0.vresp.com/bDvvro

I would say that given that the aquarium trade removes about 1/1 millionth of the fish from the ocean that the commercial fishing industry does every year, and the damage we do to reefs by removing coral absolutely pales in comparison to the damage drag net fishing, or dynamite fishing, or cyanide fishing does to the reefs of the world, that the ethics of how damaging this hobby is to global ecosystems is a totally mute point if anyone here eats tuna.

Reefs in places that have something to gain from having a steady supply of healthy corals and fish to export to the aquarium trade and regulate it accordingly (Australia and Hawaii for starters) can actually benefit from an active aquarium trade. True not all places are like that, but that's why my elegance coral is Australian and not from the Philippines. Most species of fish on reefs reproduce in numbers greater than the niche market of the aquarium trade could really make a dent in, and in the cases where that's not true, it's usually the research that happens as a result of the aquarium trade that helps us find that out.

As for the ethics of keeping animals in glass boxes - that's always going to be a matter of opinion, but one would think that everyone here had to come to peace with that little conundrum by now.

http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/cont...refuse-confess

Full article there :P